We made it to Episode 63 of the Behind the Golf Brand Podcast. In this week's episode, I interview my good friend Shane Yang , the CEO of the LIVE VIEW SPORTS.
The idea of practicing your golf swing in front of a mirror is probably almost as old as golf. The self-awareness that comes from seeing yourself and connecting the objective image with a kinetic feeling is invaluable in accelerating and re-enforcing the learning of a new skill.
Shane’s children worked for several years using traditional video-based instruction, when it occurred to Shane that the learning process could be greatly accelerated by providing traditional video tools like swing planes in a live environment. Instead of showing students mistakes only after they had already been made, live swing tools would show mistakes as they were occurring and allow for instant correction. With a live swing tool environment, students could practice precisely, learn quickly, and avoid forming bad habits.
Shane’s idea culminated in the successful completion of a Kickstarter campaign that raised over $10,000 for the initial production of LiveViewGolf cameras.
We made it to Episode 63 of the Behind the Golf Brand Podcast. In this week's episode, I interview my good friend Shane Yang , the CEO of the LIVE VIEW SPORTS.
The idea of practicing your golf swing in front of a mirror is probably almost as old as golf. The self-awareness that comes from seeing yourself and connecting the objective image with a kinetic feeling is invaluable in accelerating and re-enforcing the learning of a new skill.
Shane’s children worked for several years using traditional video-based instruction, when it occurred to Shane that the learning process could be greatly accelerated by providing traditional video tools like swing planes in a live environment. Instead of showing students mistakes only after they had already been made, live swing tools would show mistakes as they were occurring and allow for instant correction. With a live swing tool environment, students could practice precisely, learn quickly, and avoid forming bad habits.
Shane’s idea culminated in the successful completion of a Kickstarter campaign that raised over $10,000 for the initial production of LiveViewGolf cameras.
The day we play a golf. Let me show you how we do it in the pros. Welcome to behind the golf brand podcast. I've never missed a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf. My friends were the golf clubs. I lived on the golf course. I lived on the driving range from pro talk. You should learn something each and every single round new player to fund from on and off the green. Why would you play golf? You don't play it for money. Just let me put the ball in the hole. This is behind the golf brand podcast with Paul libertory.
Speaker 2:What's up guys, Paul from golfers authority. Welcome to the behind the golf brand podcast. We are on episode 63 as crazy to me this week. I have my good friend, Shane yang from live view sports. I won't go to Shane for about two and a half, three years. His story is amazing how he came up with live view and the whole product line they have. And I'm really excited to have him on the show because like, this is an item that I use with my golf bag and I use it for my own golf training. So it's really cool. How like, like he already developed and stuff. So without further ado, welcome to the show and Shane
Speaker 3:You're to be on the show. You're like,
Speaker 2:I'll worry, Amy. They'll quiet. I was like, oh, he's not hearing me. All right. So
Speaker 3:It's been like three shows. So that's, that's a great milestone. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:This is like last April. And it's like, I try to do like one a week. If I can't, sometimes I might go two weeks out or something, but just depending on scheduling and stuff,
Speaker 3:Actually, that's a, that's a big commitment to do this every week. And I know, I know because we're running our channel right now and we're trying to do one a month. And I think we're lucky if we get six out a year. So really it's a lot of effort to put these things. Are
Speaker 2:You guys doing a podcast too? Are you guys just doing, not a
Speaker 3:Podcast? We're just doing YouTube, right? So we have, um, our YouTube channel, just kind of showing off different ways to use the live view. We pair up with, um, uh, Todd Cole bowl, red us golf TV. Todd is a, is a great coach. He works with Angela Sanford. Uh, he runs the academy up there, but yeah, so, you know, once a month they do a video on how they use the live view in, in, uh, in coaching and in practice. You know, our job is basically just to kind of help them feed them material and then, you know, get the, get the YouTube videos up. But yeah, it's a lot of effort. I gotta give you props for getting these up once a week. I mean, it's, it's a lot of work.
Speaker 2:So when I first started, it was like right in the middle of COVID or it was a project, a zoom call for the first year, really. But the quality of zoom is not all the best, you know, but at least it gives you the files. So then you're able to like remaster them and stuff like that, but I didn't know anything. And like I just called my friends at different golf brands have their own podcasts. And I was like really grateful to have them like, help me figure it out, you know, like what to buy, what platform and blah, blah, blah. It's a lot, it's a little bit of a learning curve, but I enjoy it. And I'm really excited to have you on the show because like, seriously, Shane and I were talking about this before the show where like how we met actually through like Todd and all those guys, it's like two and a half years ago. But to me it's cool because I had never really talked to Shane before. Like we emailed back and forth, but they were like, talk, don't talk to them. So it's kind of cool to finally talk to them. So my first question to you today is what's your first memory in golf? Like how long have you been golfing and what do you remember? Like what's your first memory?
Speaker 3:So I'm kind of a late starter and I'll, I'll tell you sort of my story. I know if anybody really wants to hear this, but it's probably similar to some, a lot of the earth. So I think there's like two types of golfers. There's the golfer who's who grew up with it there, their grandfather or their father taught them. And they've had clubs ever since I can remember. So that's not me. I'm, I'm the kid who watched his friends golf. So I had, um, uncles and cousins and they all ran, ran companies all the time. So they're doing all this stuff on the golf course. And so my cousins are those guys, my cousins grew up with a golf club in their hand and my cousin, Steve, he, you know, he's like a three handicap. And you know, he, he hit the ball 300 yards before all the modern technology came out. Right. I kind of always watched them. And I was so that, that was like my earliest memories, actually, not me playing golf as me watching other people play golf. I always felt like there was a sense of community that they had, like they would go out in the golf course and they come back and after they came back, they would always have all these stories, all these stories to tell about what happened and you know, they seem so happy whenever they came back. And so when I was old enough, um, I, I finished college and then I went to grad school. I went to law school and law school. I just, yeah, I'm actually a lawyer or a reformed lawyer. I haven't done that for 10 years now. Are you really
Speaker 2:A practicing, like
Speaker 3:No joke right now? No, for real, what kind of law
Speaker 2:Business, IP, uh, real estate, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:That's great. I did
Speaker 2:Offline the life of a leader,
Speaker 3:But, um, so when I, when I started first working, you know, it's kind of one of those things that I really wanted to get into. I really wanted to get into golf. You know, that was kind of the reason why, you know, I, I always had this, this love and this obsession almost with golf because I saw sort of how it affected the other members of my family and how they're just really, really close because of it. So then when I took it up, I took it up much later. I think I was 25 or 26 when I first started playing and I was terrible. Um, in fact, I was terrible for most of my life, you know, I took lessons, but really what kinda got me really interested in sort of the more technical aspects of golf was when my, when I had kids and my oldest daughter, who's now a junior in college, um, she started taking golf, should do it when she was 13. So at that time she, we started taking lessons. We went through a couple of different coaches. I didn't really know anything about coaching, but, um, through a number of different things, we found a coach that we really liked. The problem was the coach was all the way down in Monterey and we're based out of San Jose, California. So that's about a long drive, right? Yeah. That's a long drive, you know, it's, it's an hour and a half. And, uh, you know, for those of you who are serious, you know, it's not something you can do, like once a year, especially with a young golfer, you're kind of trying to set their swing. So we're doing this drive probably once a week, once every other week. And it was just a lot of driving. It's like
Speaker 2:Three hours a week of driving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Three, three hours for, uh, you know, our nav there and then an hour less than an hour and a half back. So it was like
Speaker 2:Five to Monterrey.
Speaker 3:We, we actually thought about that at one point. Oh really? But, uh, yeah, no, all of our stuff is based out of San Jose. So, but you know, it was just a really, it was a really intense time for us. My daughter, uh, God grew good, actually really fast. Like a lot of kids do. She went from literally shooting in the hundreds to, you know, probably being a single digit and probably under two, under two years. And now she, um, she actually in 2018, when she was 17, she qualified for the U S women's am and actually made the cut. Um, now she's playing, um, at UC Irvine on the women's golf team.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. That's really cool. Yeah. So
Speaker 3:It's really no.
Speaker 2:And also your old, I didn't know that you're old. So that's funny.
Speaker 3:I'm older.
Speaker 2:So did you, where'd you grow up? I grew up in California. I grew up in Texas.
Speaker 3:That's true. I'm from Houston originally. And then I moved to California basically for work in around 98 or so. Did you go to
Speaker 2:Law school in Texas, which is a lot still in California. I went
Speaker 3:To law school up east. I went to law school in New York. What school? I went to Cornell
Speaker 2:Dude. You're frigging like super smart. Holy crap. Where'd you go to undergrad at? You put, oh
Speaker 3:No. I went the university of Texas. So I did, I did four years at the university of Texas.
Speaker 2:You make an alarm to make it a lot of fans right now. Yeah. See, like you have the two cool schools. So growing up though, so you grew up in Texas, right? And like your family played golf, but you didn't really play. I mean, you played a little bit probably like, but not really played golf. And then, then you went to undergrad and went to law school. It's just always interesting to find out like the, like the entrepreneurs behind golf brands, because it's all over the gambit. You have guys that were in the golf world, you know, like grew up playing golf and like were, you know, semi-professional or whatever. And there's guys like you and me. Right. It was just like, you know, we play it's fun. I'm not that good. I was, that's the part of the whole thing about golf, right. You're always trying to get better. So after you graduated law school, then new to Texas, I mean, you'd have California then after that, because there's, you're batting. And like w w what kind of law were you practicing?
Speaker 3:So that's kind of how I got into the tech world in general. So, um, I was doing kind of high corporate finance, like that type of stuff. We're doing M and a, and then towards the end of, uh, while the end of my career, my career lasted about five years. As far as lawyers are concerned, it's not the longest, but it's not a short career either.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because you learn a lot in those first five years, especially if you're doing like high profile stuff. Like, like if you're, if you're boots on the ground, you learn so much, you, you usually get picked like cherry picked, you know what I mean, from like a beer corporation or you realize like, Hey, this sucks. I mean, it's only Tuesday.
Speaker 3:So I was kind of in the latter camp, I was like, you know, uh, my, my path through it was, I, you know, I worked in corporate general, corporate were doing mergers and acquisitions. And then I moved into corporate finance. And from corporate finance, I actually ended up transferring to venture finance. I was actually working with, um, some of the funds that were funding, a lot of these startup companies and the
Speaker 2:Nineties
Speaker 3:Early two thousands in the late nineties. Yeah. In the like
Speaker 2:Crap, that's like the heyday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. So it wasn't so much fun, but it was also crazy. And, um, the, the one thing I learned out of it, for me, the biggest thing coming out of this all was just, I'd much rather be on the company side than on the legal side. Right. Because as a lawyer, you kind of, you're doing all the day-to-day, the due diligence. You're like drafting documents, reviewing documents, your
Speaker 2:Everything. You're like triple, quadruple checking everything. You're managing emotions on the client side and on the other side, and you just want to get the deal done. Oh, I know it sucks. Like, it's like, you're a parent, you know, with a bunch of rich adults, that's what it is. We're just kids. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, being, being sort of the adult in, to me, it felt like being, having to be the adult in the room with a bunch of kids that are having fun. Right. So,
Speaker 2:And you're not, and they're going to make major, they're making major money. Right. Like you're getting paid,
Speaker 3:Like you're
Speaker 2:So much more money. It's like, I know we got some deals going on that like at my firm is blows my mind, how much money they like. It it's like more than I could ever imagine having my entire life. And I was just like, are you kidding me? You know? And it's like, then you have to manage those expectations. Not yeah.
Speaker 3:But, um, you know, it's, it's exciting. I think in terms of things that are going on. And just to me being part of that on the, on the legal side, I was very clear that I wanted to be on the company side. I've always kind of graduated, uh, GRA gravitated towards technology. I taught myself how to code when I was 16. I was never a computer science major. Um, my, uh, my major undergrad economics and finance. And then I went to law school. I was doing corporate. I've always loved technology. I've always loved computers and programming. And you know, to the point when I was in law school, I had four, uh, three roommates and one of the biggest fights. And you know, some of you guys probably relate to this when you're in college. Well, probably not anymore, but in college we used to have to pay the phone bill by the minute. All right, this is, this, this will date me how old I am. So
Speaker 2:Close, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we had, we had our phone bill by the minute and, and we actually had to, um, we would allocate who had to pay how much on the phone bill, because everybody's making long distance calls. Cause we're all, you know, away at school
Speaker 2:In exactly.
Speaker 3:It just got to be this thing. Like every month, like there would be like$50 of unclaimed phone calls and I just got so sick of it. Right. Because like, who's going to pay for this.
Speaker 2:You have no money. You have like no money either. So like$50, like a million dollars.
Speaker 3:It was a lot. It was, it was a lot, you could buy a
Speaker 2:Steak back then for like 10 cents. That's how much
Speaker 3:And Shane, and not quite that old, but yes, I actually wrote a program that would analyze the phone bill and, um, you know, it's sorta like all the known calls. Like I know for sure this is the CPU. And then it goes through the remaining calls and then it assigned like, uh, you know, by, by the time of call, we kind of figure out who has home based on schedule. So we got the discrepancies down to like less than a buck, but the point was, it probably took me a week to write this program out how to, how to assign all the, all the phone calls. Um, but I enjoyed it. It was fun. Right. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I like to do. So then I'm calling
Speaker 2:You too. I bet. Like, it's like when you code or when you're building something on, I feel like online to me, it's very calming. Like it's just like control variables and you're, if it doesn't work, you can fix it right then and there, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:You know? Yeah. You're
Speaker 2:Not waiting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Like you can, you can test it. You can, you know, to meet debugging is actually very therapeutic because you can actually test things and you can see immediately what works and kind of go, you know, it's a very methodical process in the late nineties, I was really big into music and to online music, you know, we actually, I had access to, you know, MP3s before there were like a thing. Right.
Speaker 2:Well, plus you in California, when all that was going on, like the late nineties, like, I feel like I went to college in the late nineties. Right. And like, you know, I felt like when you're in college, doesn't matter where you were in the United States. If you're in college, like, I feel like college kids are really on the cutting edge of what are technologies happening. Right. Whether it be MP3s, like, yeah, that was a big deal. Do we even have burners back then? I think we might start getting burners back then. Like
Speaker 3:The burners. Yeah. So people started burning custom CDs, those like the fun things I used to do. I basically, we, you know, we get these MP3s, we burn custom CDs and then send them around to all our friends. Like maybe
Speaker 2:Like, like playlist and crap like that. And like when I was in college or my fraternity, like I had a bunch of like CS Mt. Of Purdue for undergrad. And so I had a bunch of like CS majors, right. There were my, my frat. And so they like, this is like, like 98, 99 in there, we built a cerebral data. Didn't do it, but they built a server and they
Speaker 3:Made everybody dump all their MP3s into the server. So we, this mega like we in our own Napster pretty much right. It was like humongous. And then like, we all had access to it and we just like all share it or played at parties, you know, or burn a CD. Cause like, you know, you had the, you know, you could play it on your car back then. It was a big deal, like a burned CD. So that was fun time. I still had that. That's exactly the concept that, that, um, I went to off of. Right. So, um, that's exactly what's happening. People had these massive servers with all of this content around that same time Napster launched and um, you know, kind of being from the legal side. My, my concept was like, well, you know, I know Napster has legal problems. So is there a way to kind of do this more above board? So instead of just letting people download things, can you create custom playlists? This is something that happens like routinely nowadays, but back to the Spotify,
Speaker 2:Right? Same thing I'm saying it's like, you're not, it's literally Spotify or Pandora. Well, mostly spent Spotify.
Speaker 3:So that was my first company. So we actually created one of the first mute streaming music companies. We raised, I made$10 million. Um, and that first, you know, a.com bubble and when all the lawsuits hit, you know, unfortunately the company didn't survive that I was just not a good time to be in the music business, but yeah, that's how I kind of transitioned from being a lawyer into technology. So that kind of games where you do that on the
Speaker 2:Side while you were still practicing law.
Speaker 3:I, it started as a side hustle, but very quickly it just became so all consuming that I ended up quitting my law firm job in 98. And then did that full time. Yeah. Well, it was fun. It was just so much fun at the time, right. To just kind of be fully immersed and, and I told you right, that that's, I always knew I wanted to be on the company side. I didn't want to be on the legal side of all of it. And that was kind of my, my decision.
Speaker 2:Cool. My opinion with being a lawyer, the plus side, right. Is you have a legal mind, right. So you can see things a million miles ahead before it even happens. Right. You can prepare for it. You can like, you already kind of know how to be in business, kinda because you're helping people through their own business issues, which are major issues, you know? And then you also like, at least for the, with my practice, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs. And so it's like, it's cool to see, I don't know, to be immersed in that world. I think, I mean, I love it. That's what I love to do. So then what happened with that? They just like, go away there, just close it down. You're like, all right, we're out. We're not going to miss this.
Speaker 3:So where, where that led me was it gave me, um, basically my first software team. Right. So when I, when I first started out, I was doing everything myself. I was coding everything myself. I was setting up it's impossible to do, which was, you know, I mean, it was like a little bitty company, but then when we got funding, I think we had at one point like 50 people or something, uh, had 10 engineers, 10, 10 software developers. And when everything crashed, the good thing was that we were able to actually find some really cool people. So through that, I kind of started working with my first software team, you know, that kind of helped me transition more fully into the management side of technology. And it kind of gave me this understanding of sort of what you need to do in order to have more formal structures when you build, you know, larger projects, enterprise software. So we ended up, you know, we survived, we ended up just writing a software code for, uh, uh, as, as contractors. Um, there was at the time, you know, even today there's still tons of software, right? Software kind of rules the world these days. Um, even though the companies went under all those developers, most of them didn't have trouble finding jobs. And so that, that was us, you know, we, the other thing,
Speaker 2:This is my cousin. He is working in the lab, like a CS lab at like U of I and his friends that he had four friends with him. They all like the year before, you know, they all went to San Francisco and they started like a website or a cyst, a service. Right. And then like, they're like, Hey, come out to California. And he was like, okay. So then he goes out to California. They like, he works with his company. He's living in the city, like the Castro district rent controlled apartment, mind you a big one in the Castro. They live there for like 15 years. Right. It's like they paid nothing. It'd be like$2,000 a month or something crazy. But then that company, this is crazy. This is the craziest story. So then that little company that has feminist friends where he was working at his friends owned, they re they were called eGroups. I think they sold Yahoo, bought them out and like 98. So he made like a pretty sizable chunk of change. Right. Not a ton of money, but pretty for 22 years old, it's a lot of money. Right? Like you buy a house kind of money, like a house in California. He retired for like, you know, six months. And then some of his friends, same thing you were saying before, it's like community. Right. So Ms. Friends were like, Hey, we're going to this new company called Google. You should come check it out. You know, it's like 98 they're, you know, they're kind of big. So he went to Google, I was at a Google for five years, six years until they went public and he made a boatload of money and he like retired again at like 30. And then he took like two years off, rode his bicycle everywhere and like, like then races and stuff. And then what year was that? Like 2003 maybe. And then his friends were like, Hey, we're going to this new startup called YouTube. You should check it out. And he's like, so he went to YouTube. It was only there for like two months. And then they got bought out by Google. So all the stock that he got from YouTube now turn into more Google stock that you already have from before. Like if you stepped in, he would find like the biggest diamond in the right. Like the best timing ever. So,
Speaker 3:But it's kind of the nature I think, of the bay area. Right. And that's one of the really interesting things about being here and living here, you're immersed in so much technology. I think skill sets are important. So I, you know, I don't know if there's a theme to these podcasts in terms of, you know, behind the brand, like how do businesses grow and how do they succeed? I think being in the right, uh, at the right time at the right place, I think is a huge key factor for people to be successful. Right. And, um, you know, like you said, it's like, you're in the right time, right place. You can step in and you get a bunch of diamonds out of it and
Speaker 2:I'm literally over and over and over and over again, you know,
Speaker 3:The bay area has been that kind of place. Um, over the last, you know, couple, well, several decades, years, 30 years. Um, but again, it's, you know, you have to have the right skill sets and the right, right.
Speaker 2:There's still, there's still a curve right now. We call it a learning curve, but there's a curve you have to meet, you have to be capable of the skills that are needed in that world. If you're not forget it, you're not, you know, like, but that's also relationships and like people knowing each other and oh, that guy does a good job. Oh, that guy does a good job. And it's more about building like the right teams and then attracting more talent. Right? Like, so how long were you doing like the, um, consultants,
Speaker 3:Um, kind of freelance consulting for about three years. And we did some really cool stuff, um, in that time. But, um, through that, I was introduced to a buddy of mine who was, um, who was actually running a venture fund. And, but there were based out of Taiwan. So, um, to me, or the key thing to that was Tai Taiwan is where actually a lot of, uh, hardware is manufactured. So a lot of your PCs, all of your laptops, um, I don't know if you guys are keeping up with the news, but there's this company called TSMC Taiwan, semiconductor manufacturing company. They make almost all of the, well, not all, but they make a large, large percentage of all the semiconductors, all the chips that we use in our iPhones and our laptops, you know, in, in wifi chips, all of those things. So that's all it comes out of Taiwan. So a lot of the computer hardware comes out of Taiwan. So the problem that Taiwan has is that, um, they make stuff, but they're not really good at selling stuff. Um, if that makes any sense, um, they usually,
Speaker 2:I going always have that problem too, right? Like you can invent something, but where the rubber meets the road is, can you sell that? Something even could be the coolest thing in the world, right? Like if no, one's going to buy it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:You know, he asked me to help them basically manage their portfolio and their portfolio included a bunch of semiconductor things. They, you know, really as a stuff like chips that protect your computer from static discharge. So if you touch a computer, sometimes you get that little spark that jumps across, you know, that that spark is like 40,000 or 50,000 volts. It can actually fry everything inside your computer. So there's actually specific chips that protect against that. But more specifically, one of the more fun projects that we did was we actually worked on a couple of different camera companies that sort of ended up becoming the Genesis of what is now live U sports. Um, and in that time period, we're making, um, biometric sensors for, um, Homeland security. Um, you know, when you come into the country, they're like these fingerprint sensors that you use to check to see if you're really you. And so we actually made a lot of the optics in the prisons and some of the sensors for those, those machines just got really comfortable with the, uh, the camera side about six years ago, right. About the time when my daughter started playing golf, I just kind of had one of these moments where I thought about, you know, what I want to, what do I want to do with my life? Where do I want it to be? Where do I want to be 10 years from now? How old were you
Speaker 2:And had these thoughts on it? Uh,
Speaker 3:I was probably in my late forties at that point, you know, I was really just kind of trying to figure out what I wanted the rest, you know, the next 10 years of my life to look like I kinda came back to this idea of, you know, I still want to run my own company. I wanted to be something that I'm just excited every day about, you know, when I get up to be doing, and I want it to be something that supports my family. I literally made a list of like all these criteria of all the things that I wanted this thing to do. And then on the other side, I wrote down all of my resources in terms of these are the things that I can do. These are the things I'm good at. These are the things that, you know, I want to support. And so, you know, one of the things I I had was I really love playing golf, even though I'm not good at it. I really want to spend more time with my family. So I, you know, my daughter was spending a lot of time doing golf. And then, and as I told you, I was spending a lot of time driving her everywhere. And then the other thing that I had as a resource was these, these camera companies that I was working with. And I thought, you know, it'd be really cool, be, you know, to create a golf camera company. And, um, it, wasn't some kind of a morphous thing. I mean, I had already kind of come to the realization at that point that there was something that we needed in order to make, um, my daughter's practice a little bit more effective, not a little, a lot, right. Because for a lot of golfers that take golf lessons, there is this disconnect between what happens in the lesson. And then what happens when you're then on your own without your coach at the driving range, right in the lesson, everything's perfect because your coach gets you exactly to where you need and our coaching,
Speaker 2:The feedback too. You're gonna get no feedback exactly. When you're by yourself. You think you get the back in your head.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's, it's the, it's the feedback it's like when, when you're in the lesson, your coach looks at you and he tells you exactly where you need to be, and it can give you that
Speaker 2:Your angles off, blah, blah, like, you know, you, and then you hit a perfect shot. You're like, oh, okay. And then you go down the drain in the range and you're like, not even close.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And what ends up happening is you just don't have that awareness. And so I kind of felt like this and the way we initially handled it was just lots of videos. So I would stand behind my daughter with an iPhone, like four hours at a time just like video or show her a video, show her video, show her. Right. I realized that it would actually be a lot more productive. It would be something that you could see live. Right. And that's how we kind of came up with the idea of a digital mirroring, because the difference between like having an iPhone and then looking at it later, it's, there's, there's a time delay of when you see something and when you can make the correction and even understanding what movement creates, what kind of, you know, geometry, what kind of position in the backswing. And, you know, that's just kinda how, uh, I had this idea that this would be something really, really useful. And at the time the camera companies that I was working with, there were some wire, some wireless technologies that's coming out about broadcasting video in real time. So when I saw that I put two and two together, I thought, you know, if I had this for my golf practice, it would be awesome. Right. Cause I could just see what, what, what we're doing. My, my daughter, I wouldn't have to constantly show her her video because she, she could correct literally halfway in mid-swing. Right.
Speaker 2:So you could see it and be like, oh, all right. And, uh, and then you don't need to be doing like, you're doing a wrong Todd a lot. Cause she didn't even like, cause kids don't listen to their parents anyway. So then I'm like, well, yeah. You're like, look, you are doing it wrong. See, so initially you were just using an iPhone to record like a camcorder or what were you doing?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, we would just, you know, use an iPhone, um, and you know, I would just stand behind her and then just record and then show her and then record and show her. Right. And, and even with that, we wouldn't do every single swing. We'd do maybe five or six swings and arrange session would be a lot. Um, just cause it's, it's kind of a pain in the to like set up and then wait for the countdown. Right. So my kids are really good at, at hitting on command. I can tell them 3, 2, 1 hit and they go exactly. Perfectly time it, and then I'm the least, but yeah. So, but you know, it's still, it's still kind of a hassle to do all of that and then, you know, come up and then, you know, show them rewind, trim. And then the other thing is, you know, there, there are some really good software tools where you can draw in lines and things like that. But how much easier is it? If you can see the line literally in mid swing, right. Just in terms of just being a, being aware of what it feels like to go up on plane, as opposed to a seeing it's real time.
Speaker 2:It's not after the fact. And you're like, oh, let me draw the lines. It's like, well, that's not going to be good. Cause that was two days ago. Right. Like, but in real time, like you're like, oh, okay. And then they can, it goes right back to the programming. You're getting instant feedback. Right. Like that's it. And that's how you can know if you're doing something right or wrong.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And to me, the, you know, the, the whole thing about getting that all started. Um, so, so there's that, there's the technology piece of it. And, um, as we started playing with it, I realized there's sort of a bunch of things that, that will make this more useful and more helpful. You know, I, I think this is sort of where the growth of the company started when we first launched. It was literally just a digital mirror, um, that wasn't 2000 end of 2015, early 2016. And, um, we got really lucky because I had a relationship, um, an introduction to, um, Dave Phillips, who is the founder of the title is performance Institute. And so he knows like a lot of the high level coaches. And, um, the other thing is he's also worked with video his entire life, right? So through a friend, um, I sent him a prototype, I said, and it was all gnarly. I was like, this, this PCB, this board with a camera stuck in, into like this nest nasty, like 3d printed case, you know, it was just all kind of like glued together.
Speaker 2:IPhone is like all wrapped in black tape. And you're like here
Speaker 3:Basically, like imagine, you know, somebody tried to make an iPhone and they always like, you know, maybe like pieces of what sandwich together, you know? Yeah. If you want, that's literally what it was. So we sent it to Dave and I said, look, this is something I'm working on, what you think about it. Right. You know, like, like your feedback. Um, cause I know you do a lot of coaching. You work with a lot of coaches. His feedback was incredible. He said, oh my God, this is like the greatest thing. Because you know, he literally spent his entire life working with these video products and in his world prior to live view, the way you do video is, um, uh, you have, you know, all these cameras and high resolution cameras and you have to run wiring everywhere and then you've got to power everything. And then you got these, you know, laptop PCs. This is before laptops became, you know, prevalent, let's see you're carrying on bricks of PCs. And then, um, he described to me what he used to use to work for David Ledbetter. You know, he said lead better and loved video. Um, but you know, the problem for him was he's the one in charge of setting up the video stations. So he'd carry on like 32 inch seat, CRT monitors. I mean, those things weighed, like
Speaker 2:We were heavy 50 pounds. I had that and you got you're a bad-ass you're like, oh, I got a 25 inch monitor and it literally weighed 200 pounds. Oh, I remember that. I remember it was like a thousand dollars.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. So that's the driving range on the hitting station. And, and you know, when, when we showed him sort of what we'd done, basically there's this camera and it's, you know, like this big and then use it with your iPhone and it's like, that's all you need. You know, I broke my back, my entire life carrying around thousands of pounds of monitors and computers and cameras. And like, now you can do this with like two hands. So he, he, he was amazed. He was shocked that that was possible. Um, and so he, he helped us a lot in terms of getting started. Uh, he introduced us to a lot of, um, high-level coaches, um, and you know, helped us get, get launched. So
Speaker 2:Until you did this, did you realize how small the golf community really was? Like, I didn't know how it's connected. It's so weird. Like it's cool. But I, it just, I didn't know. It was like that, you know?
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's much smaller than you realize. Like, like you said, I think everybody kind of knows everybody. It's it's really,
Speaker 2:That's how I grew so quickly was because I think maybe a generational thing, maybe I have no idea, but like, or way the way I was raised. But like, if you say you're going to do something, you just do it regardless of like, if it doesn't turn out the way you want it to just follow through. Right. And I don't think a lot of people do that. I think, I think there's two issues right now. I think people always want to get paid now, like upfront for anything right before they even produce anything. And then it's like, you don't build a relationship like that. I'm just buying you. Right. So it's like, but I didn't no idea how small the community was. Especially with entrepreneurial level, the ownership level, because everybody knows everybody. Like they all do. It's crazy, which is cool if you're, I wouldn't shares. Right. And like, Hey, this guy's a good dude. You should talk to him. So you V1 that, he loves it. Where were you? So you started producing the actual product, right. Was that being made here or was that me being made in Taiwan or are you able to use your, like, how did, how did that come about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, um, our product is made in Taiwan. It, because like I was describing, I have all the manufacturing relationships. Um, we're still using the original company that I had worked with, you know, for, for a long time. But, uh, the, I think the really interesting part about it was the initial launch process because we launched on Kickstarter when
Speaker 2:We should really, I didn't
Speaker 3:Know what we did. Yeah. And, um, what ended up happening was, and this is kind of where having Dave, like the product was super helpful because we, we did a Kickstarter campaign and, um, initially there was like no response, no feedback. Like nobody knew it just because you put something up on Kickstarter doesn't mean, you know, it gets fun that I think this is one of the misconceptions that people have. Um, or that I had, I, at least when I first started on kickstart, I thought, oh, you just like put it up on Kickstarter. And like, all these people are constantly looking at it, looking for cool projects to fund. Right. The reality is nobody knows it. It's really hard. I think once you get out on social media, you realize how hard it is to stand out in a crowded marketplace. What ended up happening was Dave ended up tweeting about it, um, to his followers and all of his followers are, you know, some of the pro leading roles,
Speaker 2:People that are like, yeah. Exact world.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So once he tweeted about it, it, it finally took off. And then we met our goal. Our goal was$20,000 is basically just enough to fund all. We had to basically pay for tooling to make all the plastics and things like that. And yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So how did that work? So if you were a funder or out the calls, people, whatever deal, what deal do they get? Do they get like at a reduced cost? I don't, I just don't know.
Speaker 3:They have all kinds of different things, but for us, it was basically a reduced cost. I think at the time, uh, retail was$180 and then the funders ended up getting it for like 130 and Z save 50 bucks, you know, but you had to wait, you know, I think 60 days to get your stuff. Right. So then, oh, and then, yeah. So, so that was, that was just a really interesting process to see how Kickstarter works and, you know, to figure out that, you know, you actually have to advertise on Kickstarter, uh, or on social media to drive people to your Kickstarter.
Speaker 2:And if you're trying to do Kickstarter and you have no money, right. And that's where on Kickstarter, then it's like, well, how do you promote it if you like, that's the whole reason why you're on cook six starter. So it's almost like a cycle that you came in, you know, and that's like your situation, you had a good product, you had the backing of somebody who really appreciated what you were doing and had the following. And it was like, you're paying for it. Right. It was more like, oh, cool. Check it out. Something cool is coming out. Finally, you know, so what year was that? Like 16, 15 was,
Speaker 3:Yeah, that wasn't too early two, 2016. So that helped us get launched. And, um, uh, and from there then it was just kind of a series of iterations. We've, you know, we've been kind of iterating on the product. Um, just trying to add features that we get based on user feedback. You know, we added instant beat play. One of the big feasible when we first launched, you had to like manually push a button, the, and then go back and look at it. But now we have the ability to automatically capture your swings. You just hit a ball, watch it, hit a ball, watch it. Right. That was like probably the number one thing that everybody wanted to see.
Speaker 2:And that is just a software thing. Right. Just developing software to do it. Right. You have to physically change the product, the physical product. Right. It was more of the software related side of it. It's kind of cool though, to think about this, right? Like where you, like, you know, over 20 years of your career, how you built all these like networks and relationships and being a tad. Right. And trying to make a kid better all this together to make one product. Right. Like, it's pretty crazy if you think about it, because if I went and tried to make a product, what you have now, like I might have some of those abilities, but not all of them. Right. And really, you need to have all of them to get to like where you're at right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's been a really interesting, um, journey, I think definitely in terms of trying to take all of these resources and all of this knowledge that you've accumulated, um, in the first half of your life and, you know, trying to put it all together into something useful. I think the second half of life. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:It's more about what you want to do, not what you're doing. Right. To like provide for your family or provide for your family really, you know, or like your lifestyle, but more of like, what do I want to do? So the next half of my life that I've learned over a lot at first, it's just crazy. I love it. This is awesome. I see behind you, you have the live view. Um, so can you show that closer to the camera and this tight? Um, yeah, that's the one I have. So what are the different products? I know you have like the live view itself and then you also have the pod what's the pod. Cause I always see that what's the live view pod. Is that the stand?
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's the stand, it's basically this thing right here. So the whole point of the pod is th these are all basically successories that go with a camera? Our theory on the live view system is that, um, we really want it to be portable. You know, when, when we first started, it was just a camera and your iPhone. And the whole point for me was always that the best tools are the ones you have with you. It doesn't matter if you've got some crazy fancy tool. That's perfect for something. But if you don't have it with you, it does matter right. For us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing too, because I have products I'm really excited about and that I have, I'm not gonna name brands right now. And I paid for a subscription and it's a biggest piece of and it never works. Right. And it's like, you know, and I was like, man, this thing sucks. Like, it's like, I spend more time on my iPhone trying to get this thing to work on the course that I'd give up on it. Cause I'm like, you know, like, I'm not gonna say what product it is. You guys probably could figure it out. But like, it's very disappointing, you know? And it's like, I don't know. You want someone to work at that time. Cause you have enough gadgets. You can bring to the golf course, right. Or do a round of golf, but you know, simplicity is key and it has to work every time.
Speaker 3:And so that, that's the key, I think in terms of, you know, that's where the hardware and the software comes in. But then beyond that, you know, everything that we do is, is, is geared towards this idea that things have to be portable and they have to be sort of ready to be used. And so all of these accessories that we have, you know, everything's designed to fold up to be small. It's something that
Speaker 2:Through it, wasn't it, wasn't something like chotsky that you, you know, to add to it, it was like, this is, there's a purpose for everything you do. Right.
Speaker 3:You need this, right. I mean, you can use this without it, but there, there are enough use cases where it's just really helpful
Speaker 2:And it's not an upsell, right. It's not like, oh, you could also buy this leather pouch. It's not that at all. It's more like, Hey, we found this is cool. It would probably make it easier for you than just putting it on a bench or on top of your bag, you know, or clipping it or whatever. Yeah. So it's like,
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. The original live. If you're a member, it actually has this clip here in the back. So if you see this, this channel, this was actually designed originally to work with an alignment rod. And so when we first started out again, it's this idea of things like, what do you have in your bag? So you don't have to carry extra stuff in order to use this. Right. And so we thought, well, most other golfers who are serious or working on stuff. I mean, you always have an alignment rod because you want to make sure you, you hit it in the right direction. Right. Alignment is so critical to set up. And um, and you know, time and time again, we seen people pushed our lineman rods into the ground and we thought, you know, that would make a perfect camera stand. So that's, that's what this, this, this rod is in the back. Uh, but then as we kind of got into it, um, people are using it on concrete ranges, you know, the, uh, off of mats. So if you're on a mat, you can't push an alignment rod into the ground. It became sort of obvious that we needed something like this. And, and we just wanted to be really small, something that you can just put in your bag and not have to worry about, you know, even taking it out because it's just so small and compact.
Speaker 2:So when somebody purchases the live view,
Speaker 3:Um, what they get is just the camera. So they just get the camera and they get it in a nylon carrying case. So this is, this is what you get. Um, again, it's got the channel at the back. So if you have an alignment rod, you can get one, you know, at home Depot for like two bucks, you don't have to buy a lot of extra stuff with it. And then the app is a free download. So you can get the app, um, off of the iTunes store. And then there's an Android version available on play store. We actually are even compatible with, um, Kindle fire tablets. So you can actually use it with Kindle fire.
Speaker 2:You can use it with O S right. And you can use it with, um, like apple products and you can use it can use with Android to,
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course. So Android I'm on the Google play store.
Speaker 2:Then you get that. And then I know we're tiling earlier. Can you show me and like the viewers later on, like what the app looks like on the screen? Okay.
Speaker 3:Here's what the app, actually, it looks like I've got my iPad set up. So remember we had, we had the camera right here. So if you can see, actually the camera is, is, is showing exactly what, um, the screen is showing exactly what the camera is showing and what I've actually done is I've, I've configured something that we call LV sync, which is a duel configuration. So for a lot of people that are practicing, you know, you want to be able to see two cameras at the same time. You might want to see down the line and front facing simultaneously. So we actually came up with some technology. You can use your live, your camera right here, together with your iPhone. So this is actually the second camera that we're using. We're using the iPhone to actually video. Um, and, and everything's wireless, uh, sending it to our iPad over here by doing that, you can actually get the digital mirroring from two angles at the same time. And of course the really cool thing is, you know, if you were to actually take a golf swing, you can still take it and you record it. You can actually take a swing and then, um, it'll act automatically capture it back for you in slow motion. All right. So that's how easy it is to use as he's basically, you know, take your swing and then you can play it back. And then it goes right back to live mode.
Speaker 2:The record that to what, say that like the whole, so how does it save? Is it like all like a one round, not round, but like isn't a folder for like, you know, okay, here's all the shots I took on Saturday, or how does that work?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, um, if you look at this, basically, you know, here, here are a bunch of swings that I have, and I use this when I practice literally all the time. You see, I for like hundreds of swings, um, on this thing. Um, so
Speaker 2:Your iPhone for one side and the live view for behind, but you don't have to use your iPhone. It just kind of cool to see it from two different angles, right? Like, which is kind of, you know, and I think that's one thing that really separates you from companies that are trying to mix it all together in one product, you know, like, yo, you know, we record the swing and we give you shot data or whatever it is. It's like, well, this is like more useful than having a shot from behind only.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That to me, um, the key thing to, to the live view system is, um, the fact that you get actual, um, video data. So to me, uh, the shot data is the output. So when you actually go hit a golf shot, there w there are what I call inputs and outputs, right? The output is what happened. That that is all the stuff that happens when you finish your swing, you can see how far the ball flew, what you launched that. Um, but the thing that a lot of people get obsessed with, it gets so obsessed with the output. They forget that what creates the output is correct input, right? So if you don't get your club into the right position at the top, there's almost nothing that you can do in order to generate a good angle of attack to get the ball airborne or launched, or get good compression or whatever, um, thing you're working on specifically in your game. Right? So, so this obsessions, I feel sometimes I, and again, I, I use launch monitors too. Um, uh, so I think that it's useful to help you understand the quality of what you created, but in order to create a quality shot, what a lot of people overlook is that you have to have a quality input, which is your swing, your back swing and all of these other things. And that's where I think live view kind of plugs the gap as to just being able to understand specifically what kind of input creates, what kind of outputs, um, you know, how do you get, how do you even get your hands in the right position, right? How do you get a good turn? What does it feel like when you have a good turn? Right? Um, cause
Speaker 2:Apples and oranges, right? A shot shot monitor from behind is going to show you, did you hit a good shot or not? And how far did it go? What was your low and all this crap, right? Like all the data, but it didn't tell you, like, did you have a normal, good swing? Did you get lucky? What's the, like the stuff that really is going to make a difference, not, oh, I hit the ball far today, so I should be able hit the far, the ballpark every single time. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:And as you know, I mean, there's things that we do, we compensate. And then as we start compensating, a lot of times the overcompensate, right. And, um, and that's sort of the very fine line between, you know, hitting the ball well, and then kind of just falling off the other end. Um, you know, how many of us have, have worked on something in a lesson or even figured something out. And then the next day
Speaker 2:We try to do the same thing and it's like completely wrong, like to the point where you don't even know what happened. Right. And what typically happens is you, you, you, you focus on one feeling and then you forget about everything else. And, um, you know, that's where live is so helpful is just to help you understand like you're doing this. Right. But just because you're doing this right. You can't forget about all these other things. It's a multi-faceted tool that like focuses on the key aspect of the swing, which most products that are coming out now are trying to do everything in one product, which is impossible because I don't know. That's what I think. I mean, I'm not, I know there's other brands that have the video capability, especially shot monitors now. Right. They have the video capability, but it's not giving you the feedback. It's just, I mean, it's like half feedback. It's like, okay. Yeah. That's what I looked like from behind. But, you know, like, does that going to help me later on? Probably not. You know,
Speaker 3:She thinks, so there's like this whole science in, um, about, about learning in terms of creating essentially muscle memory. Right? So I've, I've been being a couple of really great books. Um, there's this book called the talent code, um, where you talks about sort of what makes people really great at what they do. And one of the things he talks about is this idea of directed practice or deep practice is what he calls it. And deep practice is a state where you're really paying attention to, to every movement that you're making. But in your you're, you're looking for constant feedback so that you can correct you, you making micro corrections constantly, right? And you really focused on building the correct muscle memory, the correct muscle path and neural paths that help you then offload that I did the, the key thing about muscle memory so that it turns out there really is such a thing as muscle memory. Um, it's, it's not truly memory that resides in your muscles. It's actually a memory that resides in the nerve paths that activate the muscles. But the more you train a specific movement, the more it becomes secondary, like this idea that you can do it without having to think about it, right. It comes kind of like an autonomous system. And so what you find is, you know, great players, they're not thinking about where there are in their backs when they just think, make a back swing, right. They're not thinking, you know, how high the hands are
Speaker 2:And you go the zone two, right? Like that's the zone. Like they're not even thinking it's just automatic, you know, like right now.
Speaker 3:And the reason they can do that is because they've done it so many times that they've kind of basically honed those neural pathways where it just it's like a needle in a groove, you know, once you've really dug it out deep and just kind of set it automatically follows that path. And the problem for a lot of amateur golfers is that works great when you're, you've worked on something and it's perfect, but it also works the opposite. If you've done something wrong, your whole life it'll automatically kind of jump back into that old groove into the
Speaker 2:Well yeah. Or you're self-taught right. Like yeah. You know, and you're okay. You know, I feel like a lot of players are self-taught and that's why everyone's in their eighties, shoots eighties and nineties. And the reason why is because they don't have the time or the money, right. To get better now they want to get better, but they don't have, they don't have either of those two things to use. Right. So they're like, it's kinda like the drug, right. The drug is, I want to get below 80, but you'll never get it because you can't spend the time that's needed. Right. One way or another to do it now, like for like, when I used to play golf, when I was actually a pilot right before I was a lawyer, like I used to, like when I was instructing and I was a younger pilot, like I'd work in the mornings and in Arizona it gets super fricking hot. So you can't fly. Right. Because air, air, uh, air density. So we go, golf is hot, but who cares? And I was golfing like every single day. Right. And I got really good, even though I was a crappy golfer, you know, like I wasn't professionally trained. I just, but because playing every day, you think like you're saying, it's like, you, you know, we play golf. We go, oh, I screwed that up. Why am I screwing that up? You start playing with your mental game. Right. But it's like, if you've started doing it, like every single day, you're not solely, you start chipping away at screwing up. You figure out what works, but let's take what you're saying right now. It's like, you know, if the groove is there and you're only going into the groove one time, every two months, then it's like, you'll never, you'll never get it. Um, and I'm the first person to admit it. Cause that's me like, I'm embarrassed when I go out. Sometimes
Speaker 3:I was going to say, so you're a pilot and a lawyer. So now I'm the one who's impressed. Cause when I was a kid, I always, when they'd be a pilot. So
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did that for awhile and I went to law school. I'll tell that story off the line though, if you want to hear as long. Um, but I mean, what I like about here's my opinion on Shane yang, right? James Good dude. I've like I said, I put a shame for awhile now. I think it's probably is cool. I actually have like their box on my shelf right here on my products that I actually like a lot. I use Shane's product. Uh, and I think it's cool. Like, it's very, it's simple. It isn't like, there's a lot of noise right now in the industry. And like people just buy things because they think, oh, it's flashy or it's part of a bigger system, but like, you don't really need that. Like you just need something that's going to work that is durable. Like if you look at the camera, the things, that thing is like a brick man is that's not like some flimsy iPhone, you know, like that plastic card. There's a reason why it's durable because it's going to be knocked around a bag or you can put that in your bag. Right. You look at, take the pod, put the pod like shaft into your shafts and then put the, the, um, the live view. And then it's like, oh, I have my stuff with me. Cool.
Speaker 3:Like you're at the range. And like something goes sideways. Like, God, I wish I could see what I'm doing. And it's like, no, I can't. I've got my live view in my bag and I've got the live potty to set it up and I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2:I think it's cool. I think it's really cool. So what is it, what is the live you cost? And I was like two something, right?
Speaker 3:Um, we're at 3 49 for the live view pro, but I think your listeners have, um, uh, access to a special promotion.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just don't remember. I've been doing it forever. It's why, um, for, I don't remember. I swear. Like, so if you get the live view pro uh, do you, that's just what the pro itself now, if you want to buy, is there packages, like, if you want the pod or any extra features or what
Speaker 3:We'll sell it, you would sell the pod separate it's$49 on a website. Um, you know, most of the stuff you can get directly off of website. Um, we do sell it through Amazon, but you're basically getting the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's coming now. Is that Amazon yours or is that like, is that your, they come from you or is it coming through a distributor on Amazon?
Speaker 3:So we are actually fulfilling the Amazon request directly.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I like it changed in a friend from mine for awhile. And I think you guys, like, if you're looking for something that actually really helped you with your golf game, like the live view and it's reasonably priced, right? Like if you can go buy a shot monitor, they're like$500. Like you can buy some cheap, one that's kind of crappy. I'm not gonna name brands for like two 50, but like, you know, if you want a decent monitor, it's like a minimum 500 bucks, right? That's for like the wrap soda or the Meebo or you got the Garmin, which is like 6 50, 7 50 right now. Or you go to the mule plus, which is two grand. So it's like, you can, you can get the, you know, the live view for whatever three 50, say 400 bucks, right. With the stand and you don't need all that other crap, unless you care about how far you hit the ball, I'm as important to you and whatever. Um,
Speaker 3:I went in the ball, you fix a swing, the ball will go.
Speaker 2:Right? Exactly. It's like the chicken before the egg, right. Like, okay, I wanna hit the ball far. Well, maybe you should figure out your swing and you will consistently hit the ball far or straight. Not one of every 10. Right? Like, so
Speaker 3:I think that's the key takeaway.
Speaker 2:So where can people find the live view? What's your website?
Speaker 3:It's a live view, sports.com.
Speaker 2:Honestly, guys, I love it. It's great. Like it's, Shane's a real deal. And if you guys want to like get better, definitely check out the live view. Well, thanks for being on the show today and thanks for always being part of our team brands we like to talk to and use. So you guys can check out live view, and I'll see you guys in the next episode.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to another episode of behind the golf brand podcast. You're going to beat me, go stay connected on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you win, stay out of the beach and see you on the greenery.