Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore

Ep #23 - Rooted Solutions: Zak Kozuchowski (CEO)

November 15, 2020 Paul Liberatore Season 1 Episode 23
Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore
Ep #23 - Rooted Solutions: Zak Kozuchowski (CEO)
Show Notes Transcript

We made it to Episode 23 of the Behind the Golf Brand Podcast. Thank you for all of the comments and emails. In this week's episode I interview my friend Zak Kozuchowski from Rooted Solutions. 

Zak's is a Detroit kid, who earned international recognition for the growth he achieved while Editor-in-Chief of GolfWRX.com. As in he was employee #2 at Golf WRX.  Throughout his media career, Kozuchowski was given insider access to several of the world’s most beloved sports, apparel, and technology brands. He took advantage of this rare opportunity to look under the hood of dozens of successful businesses, coming to the realization that — at their roots innovative and profitable companies tend to be more similar than they are different regardless of their size or industry. He is one of the nicest and smartest people I know and his journey is nothing short of amazing.

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Speaker 1:

Today, we play a golf. Let me show you how we do it in the pros. Welcome to behind the golf brand podcast. I've never missed with the seminar, a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf. My plans were the golf clubs. I lived on the golf course. I lived on the driving range from pro talk. You should learn something each and every single round you play to fund from on and off the green. Why would you play golf? You don't play it for money. Just let me put the ball in the hole. This is behind the golf brand podcast. With Paul libertory behind the golf brand podcast is sponsored by OnPoint. The revolutionary three-dimensional dome golf ball. Marker on point provides a Lyman recognition as small as a degree of inaccuracy from the plan course of the putt face angle endorsed by Jim Furich us open champion and 17 time PGA tour winner on point alignment technology has been proven to increase putty performance and help lower your score. Visit OnPoint golf dot U S and be sure to use code GA 10 for a 10% discount on point, make more points.

Speaker 2:

What's up guys, Paul from golfers authority. Uh, once again, I don't know what podcast episode I'm on, but that's okay because there'll be a big number on it when I publish it. Um, this week I have my friend, Zach, Zach has a very cool story and it was a very cool company. Um, Jack is from brewed solutions and Zach is, I don't know. I looked up, I've been talking to Zach for awhile now and his stories are awesome. And he's been in the industry for a long time and has seen a lot of brands grow. And uh, I thought, you know, I need to get Zach on the show because I think people need to know more about like behind the scenes. A lot of these brands it's really cool. So without further ado, I'm not going to say his last name. Cause it's hard for me to say it, even though I have a far last name, long, last name too, is my friend Zach cut to Chet's house. That's how you say his last name? You guys. So that's okay. My last name's liberatory and I've been called everything in the book, so I don't know. I don't want to butcher it too bad. So then he's gonna be like, I'm off the show. So Zach, welcome to the show. Tell me about where are you at? You're at your office. I'm at home, like most people these days, dry erase board, your house. That's cool. You brilliant. See that's the next level stuff. A dry erase board. I love dry erase boards. Cause it's our know a lot. People don't have them anymore because they can just do it on the computer and they're like, Oh, I can do on the computer. I'm like, yeah, but then I better have a dry erase board and take a picture with my phone. And I remember it, like, I dunno, what do you do? Is that your, is that your command center or what? It's my command center, but I don't know, like a lot of people, I try not to be on my phone when I'm not working. So if I could come up with a great idea when I'm not doing something and I don't want to go to my phone or my laptop or whatever. So I run down here and I scribble it on the dry erase board and I don't have to think about it anymore. That's smart. I did it in law school. We had dry erase boards everywhere and I was always writing stuff down, you know, it's, I think it's easier to map stuff out too. And you have a dry erase board. I'll think doing it on a computer. Is that helpful? Especially want to remember it. I don't know. You have two drivers sports. Was that, or is that a mirror?

Speaker 3:

That's another dry rates. Just random notes. And this is like, you know, sketch moments. But um,

Speaker 2:

If I hang man on it, I would be, but just kidding. So that, so is that an office in your house or is that like in your basement?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I have turned the basement into a sort of an office man-cave so we've got the standing desks. We've got the white boards, espresso machine over here because the caffeine addicts, a little bit of green screens over here that I haven't messed around with yet planning to shoot some, some marketing videos and, and, you know, start to tell the world more about what I do rather than just in this podcast. Not that it's not enough people

Speaker 2:

Green screen right here. Now it's this. I wish it was, this is, it looks great. This is my office. This is my garage, actually. Yeah, this is called COBIT off. This is called Kobe garage. So when you have nothing to do and you don't want to be hanging with your kids all day in the house and they're driving you crazy garage and what's cool about a garage is it has a fireproof door, which means when that thing shuts, you can't hear anything. So dad tricks, right? So I guess first let me ask you this. Like how, what's your first memory of golf? Like, did you play as a kid? Did your grandpa teach you? Like when did you start golfing golf?

Speaker 3:

It came later for me. Uh, I was a diehard baseball fan player. My dad was a huge baseball guy. Like when I think of my childhood, that's what I think about his baseball, uh, trips with my parents to tournaments and such. Um, but I, when I was about six, I think my grandpa took me out to like a little part three and I feel like the first shot I ever hit one on the green, which was, you know, he was, he was stunned. He was shocked. And it was kind of like this casual thing I did with grandpa until about 11 or 12. Uh, and then it became pretty clear to myself and my family. They're like, Hey, he's really good. So, uh, I started playing tournaments at 13, um, and you know, didn't like AGA and at the time it was called F CWT, um, you know, traveled around the Midwest, playing those. And then I, I, I played both baseball and golf in high school. My dad was heartbroken that I ended up choosing to play golf in college and not baseball. Uh, and that was a really hard decision because I actually got, um, like she got scholarships for both to go play in college. Um, and I, I accepted both and I got down to the school my freshman year and like did one practice with the baseball team, one practice with the golf team and was like, yeah, I'm going to have to decline that baseball scholarship. But I just, I just want to play golf all day every day.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I don't know. Where'd you go to college? Yeah.

Speaker 3:

At a place called Lynn university in Boca Raton. And then I transferred up to university of Richmond. The spider says most people know them and uh, I finished out there.

Speaker 2:

So what was your major? And I already know this, but yes.

Speaker 3:

So the journalism that was, um, when I wasn't playing golf, I was, you know, watching news or playing around with, you know, adolescent, right. Halo things in that way. No, I didn't play a lot of video games. I mean, I did as a kid like Ken Griffey jr. Slugfest and all those amazing and 64 games. That was my era. But no, it was, it was pretty serious for me and I, once I got into high school and I realized that, you know, this golf thing was going to be a path for me to potentially make a living someday. I mean, I thought I was going to be tiger woods. Like everybody else, my age and being tiger woods in 2005 or whatever, it's different than being tiger woods in 2020 of course. But, um, I was just super serious and super focused and super into the game. And it really helped a lot, obviously in, in my career path where I kind of took all that golf knowledge and combine it with my journalism knowledge at least to start and, uh, you know, started writing stories about it. So when did you start writing stories about it? Like, was it before your first job was like you have a blog or something, or you just did it for like newspapers or what were you doing? I never went the blog route. You know, it was kind of probably would have been good back in like 2000. I would have been an OJI in that space. At least I would not say your last name. Um, I was always super focused on like, uh, you know, getting into a company, like having a job, having a platform. Uh, I was never too interested in starting something from scratch at that time. So I was reading blogs and I wasn't, you know, I was, I was a golfer first, you know, I wasn't a tech guy. Um, so I always had that. I spent a lot of time on that golf thing, but, you know, luckily I enjoyed writing. I had, I had a good sense for journalism and I was able to get some jobs writing for PGA tour.com right out of school. And then I was, uh, doing some sports freelancing for the Detroit news. Um, and that's when I that's, when I hooked up with golf, the beer access is right after that, when they were looking to build, uh, a news presence. So what year was that? That would have been, I graduated in 2011 and I started with WRX in the fall of 2011. So, you know, less than a year. So at that time, you know, they, they were the huge forum, the forum, that's what it was. Yeah. I'd have to look back at the numbers, but I think they were maybe like 300,000 uniques or something like that. Um, just based on the forum traffic, I mean, they were the biggest and baddest forum from day one and the founders did a tremendous job making that, what it was. But the reason that I got brought in is, uh, I, I knew the owner from being in Metro Detroit and being in the golf circles. And he knew that I was called golfer. He knew that I was, uh, studying journalism and media, that I'd worked at the tour that I was working at the dues. Uh, and they wanted to be, you know, a front page glossy kind of a news outlet, not just a forum because they were thinking in their heads, you know, how long is this forest forming in Alaska? Where's technology going to go? You know, what's our next thing. So at 22 years old, you know, I'm in charge of building this, uh, you know, potential Goliath and the golf media space. So what,

Speaker 2:

What employee, or were you really a golf WRX at that point? Because let me know they had a forum, but they weren't like, it was a forum. I mean, that's kind of self, you know, self regulated, I guess you could say, you know, what's a forum and admins and stuff like that. So what were you then like employee number? What? Three, four, number two, two, as I thought I was going to say I was going to make all shocking. Like, yeah, dude, you guys, he was employee number two, a golf WRX. That's crazy. Right. When he told me that like two years ago, I was like, wait, what? Seriously? That's freaking crazy. I didn't tell the owner was from Detroit. I never knew that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, he's an auto industry guy. His family's been in the auto industry for some time. And when I was in, when I was in college, I needed a place to practice when I come home from the summers and you know, where I grew up there, weren't a lot of very good golf courses. So I had to drive all the way over to the other side of the city, to this place called Durham country club that allowed me to practice in the summers and, uh, you know, come out when you want and try not to bother anybody. And it's okay. It was really a cool situation like that. And I got to know Richard, who's the owner of golf WRX. And it's funny. Richard's really cool guy. And, uh, he was really interested in my feedback when I was in college. So it actually took a couple of years for him to even tell me that he was the owner of golf. You're actually come up to you. I can see where the range is. Like, what do you think about what's going on in golf? The Murex this week? I know you're on there a lot. I was like, yeah, you need to do this. You need to do this.

Speaker 2:

He does. He does like talking about it. Like he had no idea. He was like vetting you kind of feedback,

Speaker 3:

Feedback on what the company should be doing. And I'm not realizing that I'm speaking with the owner of the company. And eventually he, he kind of spelled the secrets and I guess that's why I was attractive. Uh, you know, when they reached out to me is that I must've, must've made some kind of sense to them, you know, when I was just giving them that feedback,

Speaker 2:

His feedback, it wasn't like you were trying to kiss his and be like, Oh, i t's t he c ross thing h ammer. You're like, n o, you should probably do this. And that like i nto i t, like a brand owner, that's huge. Right. B ecause it's like, it's hard to get that information.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, I, uh, the way we talk about it now, obviously everything is in 2020, uh, 2020 in hindsight. Right. But the Gulf of your ex was like the first golf social media, you know, and that was, it was really, you know, there was no Instagram, you know, Facebook, wasn't the place to go for news. Like where did you learn about what was hot and new and interesting golf? Where did you get videos, photos, you know, you watch the golf channel or you went to golf WRX. Right. That was just what you did in those times.

Speaker 2:

Mean there's all the magazines too, but they're always delayed. You know what I mean? Like,

Speaker 3:

So that instantaneous, um, I want to look at golf clubs right now. Right. And, uh, you know, I guess to keep her that example when I was in charge of, was kind of like Instagram stories, right. It was like the secondary feature that we were going to roll out on the website on top of the forums. Not necessarily the same as the forums, you know, but related. Right.

Speaker 2:

So, so this is like 2011, right? So golf directs X has this forum, I mean 300,000 uniques. That's a lot of freaking people do in a month. Holy crap. Right. And that just on a forum, like, so

Speaker 3:

There were some other forums, but I mean, Gulfton, Murex was 30 times the, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I mean, you think about you guys, people are going to the website to be on a forum and there's 300,000 people a month. Brands would kill to get 300,000 people a month on a website. Right. And there's a website without like, they aren't, you know, there's was a forum. That's all what, it was some other information, but I mean, it's just, it's insane. Right. In 2011 too, you know, I mean, that's just cool. So you come on board and like, what is the first thing you have we're working on? Like, what are they, what was it, what was going on?

Speaker 3:

I mean, I was, they let me do whatever I wanted and obviously within reason, right. I mean, if I was

Speaker 2:

They're like, Hey, take this to another level. We've got the forum, we got the traffic, but we want to make it into this.

Speaker 3:

Right. Yeah. They were, they were business guys and golf geeks. I mean, they, they, weren't going to tell me how to do my journalism. Right. So actually the way it started is they, you know, I told them, you guys need articles. You know, you need stories about these. You can't just have pictures of a club. Like you got to say what's going on. So I started writing these, uh, monthly articles, uh, and they couldn't believe what attracted them to the monthly articles I was writing and knew they needed more of, it was that, uh, the comments in the forum were like incredibly on topic because you know how it gets online, especially in forums. I mean the conversation just trips, bobs, and weaves and goes everywhere,

Speaker 2:

Then dies. Yeah. And then three years later, you find it again because somebody Googled it and then they're like, Oh, that's not what I was looking for.

Speaker 3:

But these, I mean, these comments were just consistently on topic and they grew really fast. Uh, one of the first stories I wrote was about James Patrick, that was like a big deal with what was happening with the Dell. And then once I, um, I think this was when I officially became a salaried employee. One of my first phone calls was to tailor-made. And I'm speaking to Sean too long, who used to essentially run the show over there right underneath Mark King. And we're talking about white, you know, one of the first deep discussions about white drivers that was ever published online because, uh, I mean, did you see a lot of deep in-depth coverage about equipment and golf and golf digest at the time? No, not really. You know, they were more focused on kind of the big picture of the game. I mean, I don't want to detract from the work that, that, um, the mix as they call them over at golf digest too. I mean, they're OGs and excellent reporters in the equipment space, but it just wasn't paid the same attention at that time as it started to be. And I think the reporting that we did at golf WRX was, uh, a reason that it has gone that way since

Speaker 2:

More until it's not just about store, it's more than just a story, right. Or PR it's like deep diving into something that people want to talk about. It's like almost taking to a forum to another level, I guess, a better way of saying like where you can really get into it and then people can comment and be like, Oh yeah, I see it. Yeah. I don't know. I think I love golf WRX. Like I've been reading it for forever. It feels like I don't even know. I mean, we I've contributed on there too. Um, which I think is awesome, but you know, now it's huge. I bet they give her a million uniques a month

Speaker 3:

Easily. Yeah. So I don't have any, I've been gone for over three years now, but you know, the peak when I was, there was 2 million uniques per month. So I mean, it was

Speaker 2:

A lot Holy moly.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, it was to me and the Andrew Turski was the guy I grew up with. He came in about a year after I joined he's now over at, at golf.com, but we used to, we used to publish stories. And when then we'd sit in the backend of WordPress and, you know, we would know within five or 10 minutes, if the story was going to take off, because instantly it would have 5,000 or 10,000 views. And it, you know, I, I gained a really keen sense of what makes golfers reaction and walk offers are actually interested in just because you're sort of, you know, your job is to sit in front of this dashboard and watch the real, uh, real time analytics come in. And, um,

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for me, for like, you had your little, your hand on the pulse of golf, right? Like that was the polls. Like, if you want to see what makes people tick, not in a bad way. Right. Or make them that's, that's it. Right. And that's the insight you would gain from that. It'd be unbelievable.

Speaker 3:

And, um, you know, I, I guess at least in business, I'll probably never have more fun than I have in that moment. You know, we were really starting something new and different and it really has never been done before. And, um, you know, like I said, I think our success at golf WRX that the industry as a whole, the media industry, as a whole responded to it, and now you're, you know, now there's more golf equipment coverage than you can even read where before, you know, if he came across a really cool golf equipment article, it was, it was a big deal.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, I've even before that, like I remember when I was younger, like, you couldn't find equipment information. Like if you went to golf.com or whatever, they would have it, but it would be like a five month old article, you know what I mean? So it was like, Oh, so-and-so is coming out with whatever. And it was like already, yeah. It came out like two months ago, you know, I knew, tried to time it. Right. But it wasn't like, I mean, it's almost what I love about golf WRX. Like, one thing I love is the what's in the bag. Right. Because you're literally seeing like, at that moment in time, I mean, it was brilliant. Just brilliant, like what they're using on the tour, like as of yesterday, you know, and it's not like you would never, you'd never do that information. And then it's like, and the way they built that whole section out, like, you know, I, I love that. I thought that was always so cool because you could literally see if you knew nothing about golf, let's say do nothing. Right. And you're like, I want to be a golfer. I want to play golf. I don't know. Look, product is good because everybody says, XYZ is good. You can go get the what's in the bag and you'd be like, Oh, that's those guys you're doing the tour. That's probably the newest and latest and greatest. Right. Because it is, I think that's really cool.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. A really funny story about that. So you remember when golf took your ex when we were originally talking with PGA tour, you know, they brought up what's in the bag and the essentially they, they caution WRX against what's in the bag. And the reason they cautioned them against w uh, what's in the bag was, you know, they say what's in the bags are like a banana and the bottom of the bag, right. It just spoiled us. They spoil so quickly because, you know, you can publish what's in the bag on Monday. And by the time the guy tees off on Thursday, he's got a different bag makeups. So, uh, you know, I can say for the guys over at golf, the barracks now, and, and I was a part of, you know, trying to build out this really detailed what's in the bag guide and to get every player. And obviously the photographers and the photographers obviously are working their tails off to for golf WRX. But, uh, it's really hard work it's every day work. And, you know, you get a comment in the comment section where someone's saying, Oh, he's playing this now you guys are late,

Speaker 2:

Dude, just because you happen to go to that tournament that day, and you happen to see him, he was a different club. Don't make, don't make your cool all of a sudden, I mean, that's a lot of work. I mean, it's the thing about the WhatsApp bag though, is that age is very quickly, right. I mean, it literally can, like what I, like, I mean, we try to do on our side, at least with what's in the bag is like the last time they want something with it. That's what they were using. I don't, I'm always updating like every week. I just don't have that hard time. So it's like, Oh yeah, this one tired used to win this week, or, you know, but there isn't one in six months, I'm not gonna update what's in his bag because this is a winning bag. Right. I guess that's kinda the way I try to approach it. Oh, it's right or wrong. It's just how we do it.

Speaker 3:

I don't want to spend too much time looking backwards, but you know, now somebody on TaylorMade staff or whatever wins, and we get three emails with in-depth equipment information. Right. But back in 2011, 2012, 2013, we used to have to beg for this information, you know, we'd go to whoever and say, what was he playing and tell us, or they had to get approval of the chain, you know, PR wasn't communicating those things like they are today. So, you know, it really has changed in a very short period of time.

Speaker 2:

Wait, so you left three years ago, right? Golf WRX, and then, yeah. And then you went into consulting, right? That's the best I can describe it. Right.

Speaker 3:

I had this incredible and rare experience when I was at WRX being inside the buildings of all of these major golf companies. But at that time, especially too, they were Goliath, sporting good companies. Right. So you had few while you had Adidas, you had Nike. So, you know, you're, you're kind of learning how the golf industry works and, and, you know, what's behind the scenes, but at the same time, you're seeing how some of the most successful brands in the history of marketing do things and how they succeed and who they hire and what those people were like. And, you know, as much as I love writing stories and yeah, it was really, it was an honor and it was a joy to share what I felt like was, you know, the cleanest and clearest description of, of new products and why they mattered as I could, which I thought was really a service to, you know, people like me who were playing high school golf or college golf, or trying to play at a high level and really wanted that information so they could get better. But, um, you know, what I fell in love with was what was happening at these brands and kind of where the start was, because as a journalist, you know, you kind of get the cake and it's 90% baked. And really what you're doing is you're kind of putting frosting on it. You know, you, you can't, it's cooked at that point. Right. But

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's already been grown. It's just now refining and refining and refining or whatever they do. And I can't tell you how many,

Speaker 3:

I would sit, particularly with Andrew. And I'd say like, pan, if he would have only done this or who thought this was a good idea, right. Or I was just so smart and that's incredible that they did. And, you know, in the marketing and consulting side, I had that opportunity, right. I can, I can start at 0% and we can figure out what ingredients we want to want to use and the product or the marketing strategy. But, you know, generally your, your most successful products that the marketing is, is built in, right. It's, it's not very smart to try and create a product and create a story after that.

Speaker 2:

And this is what I love, like talking to you about, because like, I love that stuff. Right. And I feel like one thing that happens, I've see a lot with our brand is you have a lot of new up and coming brands coming out, or brands of urban established for a couple of years, but they never really brought in the marketing part of it. Right. They never thought it through, or it's probably a really a bad way of saying it. It's more that like Dave invented something really cool, but they don't know how to get out there. Right. And I, for, I mean, personally, I saw this, my dad did his golf training aid back in the late nineties. Right. Like early internet, you know, he invented this thing called the act. You hit bring it back now, but it's really cool when it works. Right. But like back then, my dad was, you know, there's a lot of people doing this as a side thing. Right. And they try to build out a brand and then they go, Oh, I have this really cool product. And I, you know, why is everybody buying it? I went to the PGA show and I got a booth, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like that doesn't even does not move the needle at all, man. Like you're not getting in front of the right people. Right. Or you're not getting the right feedback you need because maybe your product's really cool, but it's not nice. It's 95% there. Right. There are 5% is what you need to make it sell. You know? And I think that's really cool about with what you do is because you're starting with brands who come to you and say, Hey, we need, you know, what do you think we should do? Right. Can you help us take this to another level? And cause you kind of did that with call it WRX, right? Like you took something it's that I don't know. I call, I call it the hunt. Right. It's the hunt, it's the hunt of growing a brand. Like I love it. It's like once you start growing a brand, it's like, so addictive assignment, funny, like, sure.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, when I was at golf WRX, I had relationships with a few people in the industry and you know, off the record they would ask for help. Right. They'd be like, what do you think? What do you think about this? Or what do you think about this? And this was well before it was going to be put in production or finalized or whatever. And that was really cool. And I think that's, that's the cool thing about the partnerships that I have now is that I'm really able to choose who I want to work with. Um, and then, and really make what I think is a, is a meaningful impact. And I, you know, the way I actually started was, was interesting. So when I, when I started this business, I thought, um, you know, I'm going to be mostly a consultant, right? I'm going to work with brands and I'm going to help them do X, Y, and Z and all the things that they needed to do. But you know, the, the value that I thought I could bring was the strategy and the advice. And, you know, to your point, you're working with some brands and you're realizing like, this is great advice, but this guy or his team are so busy. Right? Like even if it's a perfect idea and it's, it's something that they should be doing. I mean, execution becomes the issue. So, you know, really quickly I said, okay, I can't just provide the strategy here. Like I need to create the results too. So, um, you know, I'm not a coder, that's just, that's not something I ever did or ever learned. Um, but I I'm a good strategist. And I was able to bring in people who can help me execute that strategy around web development and creative design and advertising and all the things you need to do in modern marketing to create results. And, um, I'm also quite lucky to say that they're golf guys. So, uh, you know, I think the issue with a lot of big agencies, even the ones that do tremendous work is if you, if you sign a golf client, you've got to either hope that somebody in the building plays golf and can kind of guide and assist, or you're going to have a huge learning curve. And because my guys are on golfers, when we step into a golf brand, you know, we can start to create an impact on day one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And it's like, I think a library is probably fall into that trap. Right. They either hire a marketing agency and be like, Oh, I've learned this last couple of years. There's about a billion marketing agencies out there right now. Right. And half them are full of. So I mean, it'll probably be more than that. And I've seen it firsthand. Other brands complain about like, Oh yeah, I paid XYZ brand$50,000 and they didn't do anything for me or whatever it might be, you know? And it's like, when they tell them what they did and I'm like, Oh, they did that for$50,000. They got ripped off. Like, you know, but I'm not it's it's because those people don't understand what to do. You know, they can say, Oh yeah, I can do, we can do ads and we can do this. We can do that. But if it's not the right way of doing, it's not, you're not getting any results. And there's so many little facets too. Right. Cause it's like, it's not just about running copy. It's about the relationship with the consumer and actually building a story. Right. And I think that's where a lot of people miss out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Marketing has kind of a bad rap, especially in the journalism world where I come from. Right. I mean, marketing is almost like a four-letter word. I mean, it's, you know, there's the good side and the bad side and marketers are on the bad side, but you know, it just depends what kind of marketing you're in. I think marketers more than anything need to be great utility players. Uh, and I don't Jack of all trades, I call, I call myself a marketing and consulting firm because I have to call myself something. But you know, essentially what we're doing is we're coming into a company and we're trying to figure out what the problems are. And then we're trying to come up with solutions to those problems. So

Speaker 2:

Solver, I mean, so what you are, right? Like that's what I told him, you know, being a lawyer like, Oh, kind of lie to you. I tell people I'm like, but I just tell problems all day. That's all I do fall, fall pro I use a lot, the law is my tool. Right. But I try to solve the problem. And it's same thing with you, right? Like somebody comes into you and says, you know, we're having, why can't we sell product or whatever it might be and or why can't, you know, why does it, we know who we are. And you're like, well, let's first figure it out. And then I'll tell you what I think you should do and help you actually execute it. See that's the real key is the execution, because there's only so many hours in the day. Right. And so if someone's, if someone's running a brand and it's like an established brand and they have all this active R and D and they have all this other stuff going on, it's like, they don't want to have to be the one to have to pull the trigger all the time on the Mark. They want to make sure like, or they might hire the wrong person has no clue. So it's like, you, that's why I love, that's why I wanted to bring on a show. Right. Because I like some of the smartest people I know in golf, you guys seriously. And like, you know, cause he's seen it and there's not, like I said, I've talked to a lot of people, especially in the last, probably six months that like, are I call them handlers, right. Let's call him a handler where they'll handle the brand, you know? And they'll be like, Oh yeah, I, you know, I manage 10 different brands or whatever it is. And it's like, Zach's not that guy. Right. Zach's the guy that's like, Oh yeah, I'm ingrained in this company. And I want to see it grow. Right. And I want to see them succeed, which I think is awesome.

Speaker 3:

Well, I appreciate the compliment, but it's clear. I need to introduce you to some of the rocket scientists that work at the OEMs are a lot smarter than me.

Speaker 2:

They don't sell product as a thing you see, like you could be the fricking smartest person in the world, but if you don't sell one product who cares, like, I'm sorry. Cool. You have a cool desk. Wait, I dunno.

Speaker 3:

There's literally rocket scientists

Speaker 2:

Literally in space.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Um, no, you know, we see ourselves as functioning as part of the executives. Right? We're side-by-side with the leadership because I mean, there's a lot of clients, I'm sorry, there's a lot of agencies and do good work and they're, they're kind of in their silo and they create results in that silo. And clearly setting boundaries is important, but you know, we're, we're kind of working with brands that we see, they have a potential to revolutionize an entire category at the golf game. You know, whether you're talking about lab golf or TPT shafts or jumbo max grips, or, uh, we just recently started working with a company called perfect practice, which has created like super sweet putting that.

Speaker 2:

I know I got three of them in my garage right now. So, you know, I didn't know you got them. I've been talking to them for what are you telling me that I just like, literally I just shot a unboxing video. Like it's new, it's a new relationship that thing's going to blow that thing's already blown up. They're already sold out like all the time. I already know that. So I'm telling you right now, perfect practices is the bomb like seriously, it's the like, and the price p oint i s like 1 75 bucks. I think isn't it like right around there for like their standard. And it's like such a steal because t his t hing i s that cool and that good. And like Dustin Johnson is like u sed i t all t he time. And like, he's like t heir spokesmodel. S ee, I already know about the product. Is that cool? We'll talk offline about that. That's awesome. Good. So here's it listen to you guys. They got the brands that he works with are like seriously, the ones that are like the disruptors, right. That are changing the game, you know? And it's like, that's why I like to work with, and I think that's why Zach and I like bonded. Right? Cause like it's the same drill, same vision. Like I see these brands and like, that's why we support a lot of these small and mid-sized brands because they're the ones who are changing the game right now. And it's like, based on how they just don't get the, they don't get the chance to be put out there, you know, because they don't have the budget or they don't have the know the no knowledge. And I dunno, I think for me, I, it really resonates with me because of my dad. And I saw, you know, and I went to all of my dad with his trainee and I'm like, nothing changed in 20 years. Same problem, same problems. Right. Like, but I think our generation's changing it for ourselves because technology has allowed us to, you know, I mean, but you're, I mean, even with a lot of big brands.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean any, any brand that has some cash flow, right? Some budget to invest into Instagram and Facebook and you can, today you can reach hundreds of thousands of people. You know, you don't need to have your story on the front page of golf to have your ex to get that kind of visibility anymore. And yeah, it's, it's incredibly powerful. And I think incredibly democratic, I think, you know, if you're running Facebook, Instagram, Google ads, you know, the, the best story wins. So we try to pick brands that have the best story and then take them to a place where you can't help, but recognize them.

Speaker 2:

I dunno, that's I call like the podcasts, like what's the story behind the brand. Right. I think people need to know those stories. I think it's so important because you know, when I started the podcast, it was an idea about exposing my friends. Right. Like their brand or whatever it might be and be, I think there's just, it's just so cool. You know, like things I've learned from people, I just had no idea. Like, do you think you would know the person one way? And then they tell their story and you're like, Holy crap. I didn't. I went through all that crap, you know? And it's, I dunno, I think you get better. It's all about the story. Right. And I think a lot of brands have really cool stories, but some don't, you know, and I don't, I don't know. I know personally, I don't like looking for brands that are like have crappy products or like are trying to S I call them fake brands. Right. Or they're like, China make money off a call for, and I just don't, I don't know. So like how I obviously have been growing pretty quickly over three years. Right. I mean, you've already signed, you got five big brands. I know that you work with right now or for you probably even more I don't even know about. So then what kind of services that you guys do? Like everything, I mean, are you like, how does that work?

Speaker 3:

We're we're small. So obviously we can only work with a small number of clients.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Select select. It's not like you're giving out to the masses, like, Hey, come, you know, you only have so much time.

Speaker 3:

Right. And, you know, I opened and right away I was full and, uh,

Speaker 2:

Oh, that sucks.

Speaker 3:

It's been really good in that way. And I haven't, you know, obviously project ends and so on and so forth, but I've never been in a place where I've needed business, which is not typically the entrepreneurial experience. Right. Um, and it, you know, the services that we provide, they do vary. But, um, generally it's a, it's a reasonable commitment because, you know, five hours a month, what can you really do for a brand it's, it's, it's pretty hard. I mean, you're basically on calls and trying to get an understanding, but, you know, the, the agreements are fairly comprehensive and usually we're running a 25 to a hundred percent of the marketing department, you know, we can, with our, with our team, we can actually kind of function as a

Speaker 2:

Independent yeah. Independent marketing team. Right. Yeah. That does everything. It's not like I always run the ads. It's like, it's, it's full service. So it's like, Oh, we'll tweak site and we'll run ads and we'll check the conversions. Like we'll, you know, talk to other media companies, do they can do a review. And, you know, it's like the whole thing. It's a whole marketing team pretty much. You're, uh, you're, you're like a mercenary marketer.

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, the fun part is the relationships that we have, you know, they actually expect us to generate creative solutions, good ideas, you know, what they should do next, where I feel like, um, you know, sometimes it's more, I have a job to do, and they're telling me what I need to do X, Y, and Z. And I'm going to try to achieve it. But I'm lucky to have a relationship with clients that believe that the sky's the limit for them. And they're, they're leaning on us to come up with ways that we can unlock the insane they want to see.

Speaker 2:

I mean, cause like I've worked with some of the brands, you know, that's how we met. Right. And it's like, I love working on it though. Like I, you know, I think I've done a lot with lab as a brain. Everybody knows. And that's why I met Zack probably a year and a half ago is through lab. And I love lab like seriously. And I actually had him on the show. Right. Like, I don't know, probably two months ago, but I just, the lab putters for sewn genius. I, I, all of you guys know this. So like I have his lab putter, so I had the directive of force. Right. And like I used it, I had it in my garage and I was putting with it. My friend came over and he's like, what's that thing. And he's like, he starts making fun of it. It's like that thing's massive. And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, but it's deadly accurate. And he's like, yeah. Right. And he like took it, he started putting with it and he hit like every single putt, like 12 in a row. Right. And he's like, Holy crap. And he's like, let me borrow this. And he goes, well, yeah. And he's like, he's like, Oh, it's the postpartum overhead, my tour life. I'm like, I don't have it back now please. So I mean, that's, what's so cool because the brands that he works with are actually changing the game. Like it's outside the box, you know, and things that you just, I don't know. I just think it's so fascinating. And then to have your mind with it, you know, with a car to help get it out there, like that video, that video that they did at lab where he just like talks about it and he's in, like, it's not white background. I'm talking about, don't talk about it. Right. I love that. I've actually put that on my YouTube channel. So I'm like, it's such a good video. And I send it out to everybody. I'm like, this is the best video I've ever watched. So fricking funny. Um, but with the what's that thing called the, the revealer. Yeah. Another really cool product.

Speaker 3:

There's a, I think there's a fear sometimes in companies that, you know, marketers are going to come in and is going to make up this crazy story and we're not going to be comfortable with it. It's not going to be true and it's not going to be accurate. And I, you know, I, I'm proud to say that everything okay with your bike fall.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Sorry. I still like the string hanging out. I'm like,

Speaker 3:

You know, uh, marketing would be so much harder if I really had to start from scratch every time, but I don't believe that you ever do. You know, when I, when I came into the lab and the new CEO, Sam Holland was looking for growth, right. Blow it out in every area. The first thing we had to do was think about the story and, you know, they wanted to talk about physics and science, because they're all about the, you know, the world's only torque free putter and the way that Lionel balanced technology helps you essentially not get flinchy right. It takes the fortunate side of the putter, but you can't start there because you haven't earned that curiosity. You haven't earned that interest. So the truth of the company that took me a little bit time to find out was that all they wanted to do was to help people enjoy putting just wanted to make funny, more fun for people.

Speaker 2:

There's there's, there's the story, right? They're not, Knology like, yeah. And like Sam was talking with that too on the show, like that's, they geek out on that. Right. They love when people see their putter and they're like, what's that? And then they say, yeah, yeah, you don't need to complicate it. Right. Like really I think at the end of the day, the player wants to get better. So how do you do that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So when you say things like, you know, make putting fun again, or you're a better partner than you think Putin doesn't have to suck. You know, we came up with all these taglines and all these ideas that they stand for an idea that's true. And sometimes, you know, like it's tangible to feel like you're going to make a six foot pod. Like you don't have to miss that putt. And then sometimes it's more of an intangible story, you know, like a jumble max, for example, but these are the grips that are on price and the Shabbos clubs. And they're, they're huge, depending on which side to get, they can be either a little bit bigger than a standard grip or, you know, all the way up to what Bryce has plays, which is massive. Uh, and that's a little bit more of a not so tangible idea. And it's challenging the idea that there is a standard grip size because we all wear different size gloves.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's like, why is it all of a standard, but why do we have to have a standard? Right.

Speaker 3:

They don't. And as an oboe, who's one of the co-founders of genital Maxie says it best, right? Like the way that the standard grip size was developed was some Scotsman was hitting around wooden balls in a field and he took leather and he wrapped it around a Hickory stick. And all of a sudden you had your standard grip size, like, was that really the best size to go with guys?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's like, it's like, re-imagining what the rules are. Right. Why is that the rule? That's why I live with these brands. Right? Like you don't have the, all the mundane everyday technology, not technology, but like, I dunno what we've used to, does it have to be that anymore? Right. And I think really playing off of that, like, I dunno.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, to us, it's about empowerment. So, you know, golf is a sport that, you know, even though it has caused me many frustrations, it has empowered me to live a really good life and to make tremendous friends and do something that I like for a living. And, you know, that's how I think of it as a marketer, you know, how, how can we get people excited about the game? Or, you know, just the process of self-improvement in a way that it's, it's just, it's making them better in some way, shape or form. Right. I mean like the person who has to work out every day, you know, like, are you working on every day because you literally is necessary for your body to metabolically function? Or do you like the feeling that it gives you that allows you to perform the rest of the day and the way that you want? So I think about golf the same way. I think it's a supporter in people's lives that may take a lot of time and money, but without it, I don't know if I like picture, right. At least if you're a serious golfer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think it's bringing the fun back in the game too, you know, like just being able to help players and have fun with the game and not get frustrated and not know the truth. So I think, and I think that's one reason why we started at what we do, but what I do is because there's just a lot of like, you know, misinformation, I think, and I'm not saying it's on the brands or the industry. I just think, because the way technology is today with the internet, people, you know, confined the wrong products because there's ways of tweaking Google to be number one on the list for best whatevers. And that's like a five-year-old list of products, but they don't care. There's not a maximize Google. Right. So it's like, I think finding the right products for people, I guess, for players to help them get better. That's kind of what really, we're all trying to, Oh, that's, I'm trying to do, I know it's just, you're trying to do too. Right. But with your brands that you work with.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the communications around custom fitting in particular that we've seen at least in the last decade have been kind of around like, you're stupid. If you don't get custom fit or like your shafts to have for your shafts too stiff, or you're not playing enough loft, you don't need cavity backs or blades. Right. Like you need this. So we're kind of telling golfers everything that they're doing wrong. And then we're expecting them to play more golf and buy more equipment.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Right. And you're like, why is, yeah. I mean, outside of this year, right. When everyone's coughing. Cause they can, but yeah. I was trying to think about that. Like just there's so much, I mean, in the last 10 years, golf information is, is, you know, increase exponentially, right. Because of the internet and social media and stuff like that. So now it's like, what is right and what is wrong? You know, that fake, I won't call it fake news, but it's like, it's just an opinion. But is that really the right opinion? I may, I don't know. You know, it's like, I think that's the hard part, right? Especially for these brands that are, they'll have the budget, a massive budget to make that the news and say, Oh yeah, this is what the technology and this driver is so amazing. It's gonna make you hit the ball straight thousand yards, you know, but, but last year it didn't do it that as well, it's like, come on really?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. It's the big, the big fun club companies. I mean, every year they've got to reinvent the wheel somehow some way. And it's tough. I feel for them, I mean, I'd love to work on those projects and I am working on those projects, but especially the big, big guys, you know, the title is not, TaylorMades, that's a tough sale every 12 to 18 months.

Speaker 2:

Heck yeah. I couldn't imagine having to reinvent a product every year. Right. And say, this one's better. This one's better. I mean, it's not saying it's right or wrong. It's just that like, that's gotta be tough, really tough. You know,

Speaker 3:

This is probably the first time I ever heard this and I think it's valuable for you and your readers. So I was with Justin Rose and an event, uh, for TaylorMade. I think it was the Adidas when TaylorMade Adidas was still together, it was the Adidas three 60 shoe event. And I was talking to Justin Rose about his equipment and he, and I said, how often do you feel like need to change equipment? Not TaylorMade is asking you to change, but like when you actually need to change it. And Justin, at the time, this would have been like 2015 said, I need to make sure that I changed my clubs every two years, because you can get away with one year of not playing the latest and greatest. But if you go more than two years, you're probably losing a little bit of performance, but this, this is a really technical guy. Who's plugged into everything, you know, spin rates and everything. But you know, to him at the highest level of performance, he really did feel like every two years he needed to make a switch to keep up. It's almost like

Speaker 2:

Phones, right? Like cell phones or like laptops, right? Like you can get last year's model and it's probably not much better than worse than what's new coming out, like new iPhone 12. Right? Oh, it's latest and greatest 5g[inaudible] okay. But is it, I mean, it's marginally better probably than iPhone 11, right? There's no doubt about that because the newer, but if you, like, if you have that, if you have iPhone 11, does it really matter? No, because in two years probably to get an iPhone 14 or, you know, it's almost like, but there are products out there that you don't need to change out every two years. Right. That like your putter, right. If you have a good putter and you're able to it in, you're locked in on that, you didn't change it for two years because you've got something it's deadly accurate. That's all you care about as a player now, you know? And I think that's the hard part because there's some technologies that are always growing. Right. Well, there's some, that's like, I think as a consumer, you're just looking for the product that works best for you. I mean, some people could carry the same wedge that 20 years, you know? And I think getting that message across to people, let them know like, Hey, this is actually much better than what you're using. Try it out. You know, it might not be the name brand might be some new brand you've never heard of, or some small shop in some small state, you know, but like really this is a cool product. Check it out.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Do we have time for a quick fitting story?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course, man.

Speaker 3:

So I got fit a million times when I was working and you know, not fit by, um, somebody who just started how to fit, you know, fit by people who were tremendously effective. And most of my fittings would come out similar. You know, like my driver, I was like a seven X Tifton in, nine and a half, 10 and a half degrees, you know, a bit of draw bias. Like that was my thing. But you know, what I learned from being fit a million times is, you know, the, the track man or the, whatever you're getting fit on. Like that's, that's the start, like that's the start of the fitting process, you know, just because it's perfectly on the launch monitor doesn't mean it's going to be perfect on the course. And obviously not everybody has the luxury that I had, but you know, I could take five drivers that I was fit for and take them to the course. And for whatever reason, like one of them hit the fairway and one of them didn't, or one of them had a smaller miss bias to the left or right. So I'm taking all of these clubs, but really the only evaluation of how good they are is what's my score. And I think that gets lost to a lot of people, you know, because on the launch monitor, you might see more ball speed, lower spin, higher launch angle, whatever it might make more pots on Sam putt. But if you go to the golf course, and that's not the case, that's telling you something. And, uh, it's a bit tough because if you're getting fitted, you know, a fitting center, you kind of get that one chance and that's it. So, but I guess what I would say to that is, you know, don't hesitate to go back to the fitter for adjustments. You know, whether it's a tweak them off their live, because I just don't want people to think that the fitting is the end point. I really believe it's a starting point. And it's a learning opportunity from there as to what could be adjusted or what might even work better in a couple of years.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's one of the problems too. Like, you know, you walk into like a, a big box retailer and you say, Hey, what's a good driver. This is the one thing that started making a website a couple of years ago. They're like, Oh, they don't know. They have 10 drivers just came out and they're just, they only know what they know. Right. But they don't know. What's really good for you. And then whether or not you get fitted, okay. That's all how their story. But you know, you go buy the new driver, let's see you don't get fitted by a straight off the rack. Right. And then you take it to court. It's been$500. And they're like, Oh yeah, this one was the best because it has, it's the most forgiving. Right. And you use it and it doesn't really work for you. Now you spend$500 on a driver that you hate or it's okay. And maybe that driver is the perfect driver, but it just hasn't been taught or tweaked or whatever, and the way you needed it to. And I mean, but it's still hard because most guys don't think about getting fitted. Right. They're like, well, I didn't get fitted until like a year ago. And it made all the difference or at least my irons, I didn't get fitted for my driver yet. But, um, but it made all the difference. You're like, Oh, this, this, I remember telling myself, I'm like, Oh, this is what I supposed to feel like. Okay. I see now, you know, like I realized that I didn't know, I had, you know, brand new title is, you know, irons. It, I couldn't hit them or the. So, because they weren't made for me. So I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Um, there, there could definitely be a learning curve. Right. But generally, if it doesn't work right away,

Speaker 2:

I didn't get better. What do you think golfers think like, Oh, it's me right? Oh, what am I doing wrong? Did I not twist or torque? You know, whatever. And it's like, well, maybe not. Maybe you do the same swing you always do with your old clubs. But now your new clubs is not the right. It's not the right club. Well, I think it's really cool. Let me tell you this. I don't know if you knew about this, but I, I w I learned about this lately. So like golf, global golf has you try, which I think is fricking awesome as hell. Cause you pay like$30 or something. I remember, but like, you can pretty much get the club, whatever club it is. Try it for two weeks. If you don't like it, you can send it back and they already give you pre postage and the box and all that, stuff like that. And they, you just, you don't know, you don't have to worry about it. And if you keep it, they just charge you over the driver is which I think is brilliant because finally you can test something out because even it looks good on a launch monitor or, or not lets you just buy it off the rack. You don't, you know, like the same situation, you buy a driver and you're not happy with it. Just send it back, you know, no harm, no foul.

Speaker 3:

If you have the means, please take it to the courts. Right. Or I'm up in Detroit. Maybe you take it to the indoor hitting dome. Right. But that could probably work too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think it's cool that like, because technologies allows us to now we're able to actually zero in games and we're also able to with like this do try thing, like actually test it out, you know, not just in a cage or at PGA Superstore, you know? So what do you guys gotta go? What do you have going on with like the J in the next year? You just continue your growth and you know, do what you're you've been doing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I think we're going to continue to do what we've been doing. You know, we, we never want to be the agency that works with everybody just because, you know, your quality is going to be low. So

Speaker 2:

You dilute yourself, right. You're diluting your, not you, your brand, but just your time. Right. You can't, you want to focus on the brands you care about. Right. And those clients that you have, like, it takes a lot more energy for you to do what you do because you're doing more than what a normal marketing agency would just do. You're litigious taking, helping them. You're guiding them through this whole process.

Speaker 3:

Sure. Yeah. So we're, you know, we've added staff this year. Uh, we'll probably add some more, uh, and really, we just want to make sure that we're able to deliver everything a brand needs to create the kind of growth they want to see.

Speaker 2:

Well, I just want to say thank you for coming on the show. I mean, I have been bugging you for like, uh, I dunno, six months about this to get you on the show, but I just think like what you do and your stories and like what you've accomplished in your career. I think people need to hear about it and learn more about what you do. And like, you know, like we've only really scratched the surface you guys like. Cause I mean, has all kinds of stories from when he's with RX, but you know, I think it gives you an insight on the golf companies that you work with. And I think like it's cool to show people, you know, that somebody like you exists, right? Like, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I don't know how many young listeners you have out there, but just to share a personal story. I mean, when I look back at my trajectory of my career, it makes perfect sense how I got to where I'm at. But you know, when I was 18 or 22 or even 26, there wasn't that this really clear understanding of how I could get to this point. It wasn't there. It was, it wasn't plan a, you know, plan a was to play golf wasn't plan B plan B was to be a journalist it's plan C, but I can't imagine loving anything more than plan C. So

Speaker 2:

Your plan C is like a mixture of plan a and plan B, which is really what is perfect. Right? Cause you get to play golf and you get to work in golf and you're still a journalist.

Speaker 3:

Well, I guess, I mean, I guess what I just want to say is to anybody, especially in this climate that might be trying to figure out their career or might be worried about what work looks like going forward. You know, like I said, I plan a didn't work and plan B. Wasn't what I wanted. But you know, it seems like at every point in my life there's been this kind of little thing sitting off to the side that just kind of feels within reach and kind of feels natural. And um, I think sometimes people can get too into like trying to make it perfect. And I think sometimes we just, if we grab an opportunity and we, we see how it works, you know, kind of like what we do in marketing, right? Like we, we test and we test them, we test them, we test suite the biggest mistake in marketing, you can, you can make is to be committed to being right. Because you're not going to be right. You can be close to. Right. And you keep taking that feedback and you turn it into a really successful marketing campaign or department

Speaker 2:

Or whatever. So yeah. I just feel like there's always this little opportunity sitting off to the side, it kind of excites you. It makes you happy. You know, it seems like fun. And if you're trying to think about what's next, maybe take a look at what's besides, you know, that's cool because I think a lot of young people think that they should go that route. They think they need to like be the golf pro. Right. It's not even on the tool or even like I had Luke Davis on the show a couple of weeks ago, he owns lion loft. And like, it was the same, same thing you guys like, you know, he was wanting to be a pro. That was his thing. And then he realized that like he was going to, uh, you know, work as the pro the shop, right. Like the pro at the course. And he really had realized same thing where it's like, you know what, that's not what I want, but I want, I want to do it's this other thing. But I think it's kind of how you grow. Right? You always kind of make these little choices along the way. I mean, the thing that we're kind of known for at this moment are really good at Facebook and Instagram advertising for brands. And obviously a lot comes along with that. When I graduated high school, there was no such thing as Instagram and Facebook advertising. It hadn't been invented yet. So, you know, how could you, how could, you know what you want to do if it hasn't even been invented yet pilot? And I'm like this, like, honestly, like you just do, what's fun. I don't know if you, if you hate it, stop doing it. If it's not fun, that's that right. When this is not fun, then I stopped doing it. That's literally my mantra. Like for this at least, I mean, this is fun. I mean, there are situations where you got to keep paying the bills, right. And please feed your family. Like keep, keep paying the bills, but at least start making a plan. Well, thank you for being on the show today. Um, I really appreciate just like our friendship and working with you over the last few years and you'd be on the show and like sharing your story and about your growth. And I think you've gone through socially. Cool. And I'd love to have you back again sometime. Yeah. This was a blast. I don't get through this a ton. So I appreciate you allowing me to explore a bunch of different topics that tell stories and I hope to do it again. All right. Thanks a lot, Zach.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to another episode of behind the golf brand podcast, you're going to beat me, like get off, stay connected on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you're winning, stay out of the beach and see you on the green.