EP #10 - Seemore Putters: Jim Grundberg (CEO), Cody Hale, and Ted Gallina

In this week's episode I interview my good friends Jim Grundberg, Cody Hale, and Ted Gallina from Seemore Putters. 

Many golfers would be better off spending more time thinking about which putter they were gaming than what the hottest new driver will be this season. While drivers continue to dominate the world of online golf, putter brands like SeeMore continue to push the envelope forward where golfers can actually benefit. Innovations like the RifleScope Technology and Face Balance at Impact can help players hole more putts and make the game more fun for players looking for a weekly skins game or amateur competitions.

Transcript

Paul: 0:00

What's up guys. This is episode 10. I can't believe I made it to episode 10. It's hard to believe. I would even be on episode one. If it wasn't for these guys who I met in the beginning of the fall and hit it off really well. And then met them at the PGA show became friends, hung out in their booth for, I don't know, probably two hours. And then I had this idea like, Hey I'm going to do a podcast. I don't know anything about it. And these guys are the ones that actually walked me through. It told me what the buy. And honestly, I wouldn't have podcasts if it wasn't for them. So today I'm really excited to introduce my guests. Seemore putters today. I have Cody Hale, Jim Grundberg and Ted Gallina. Jim is a CEO of Seemore. He has some really cool stories, really cool stories. Um, and so I'm really excited to have him on the show today and hear all about Seemore. I know you guys already know who they are. They pretty much make the best putters out there. My opinion, I'm sorry, your competitors that I work with, but, um, without further ado, this is SeeMore putter. So welcome to the show guys.

Jim: 1:02

Paul thanks really, really love being honest. Yeah.

Paul: 1:04

Cool. That's really cool. So my first question I always ask brands is before you even start working with them, I'm always like, well, what's your story, right? Cause I don't really like, everybody knows about brands, but I feel like when you ask that question to people, you kind of can feel them out. Right? You can tell if you're cool or not. So first question I want to ask is I don't really know, like the story of Seemore. So can, can you begin this like how Seemore started and in that kind of thing?

Jim: 1:31

Yeah, we didn't start Seemore, but we acquired, we acquired Seemore and back in 2006. So, but if you go back to the Seemore, it was a, you know, it was one of these incredible garage inventions and patents, which of which there's hundreds, if not thousands, every year in golf. And um, this particular one was, uh, came around in about 1997, 1998 is when it started becoming a product. And then, you know, it was defined by an alignment system. So the guys that created it were golf professionals out on the West coast and they just thought, you know, Hey, alignment and aim is still in the end of the day, the foundation of putting, I mean, if you're not actually aiming where you think your aim and if you're not square to your own putter, then you have to, in order to make putts, sometimes it's going to be like two wrongs, make a right or three wrongs make a right. And their philosophy was, Hey, this is a precision device, a Potter, you know, with, with drivers, you have a fairway and with irons, you have a green, but with butters you have, you know, you have a four inch hole and, uh, you know, if you want to make putts, it's, there's no really room or margin for error. So Seemore Potter was created around this alignment system, which we call rifle scope technology, the two white lines and the red dot, the red dot gets hidden by the bottom part of the shaft. You can frame it in between the two white lines. And then all of a sudden you're set up your posture, your head, your shoulders, everything starts itself up to be ready to make a repeatable stroke the same every time. And then you also, um, using that same technology, you know, you're also perpendicular, you've got perpendicular and parallel lines to your target line. So you're square to your pod or the Potter is square to your target line. At this point in time. Now you've knocked off the major variables that would affect putting and you can put with confidence and you just get better and better. So that's the technology story. And then, I mean the big history historical story is, is that the first month this putter ever went out to the tour was 1999. And these two golf pros, you know, they, they went to the tour and they actually found a guy who was kind of called himself a tour rep at the time. And it wasn't the world back then 20 years ago, it was nothing like it is now, there were just a few of them out there, but they found this independent tour rep and they said, Hey, what do you think about this putter? And he was like, that's incredible. Nobody's got anything like it, it's visibly different. And it's very, very intuitively, correct. As soon as you see it, while it might seem odd for about five seconds, as soon as somebody shows it to you, they're like, Oh no, this makes all the sense in the world. So he took it to pebble beach, Payne Stewart, put it in play that week. He had one in four years on the PGA tour. It's crazy and pain. Stuart's caddy. My kicks had come up to the tour rep at the time and said, you know, Hey, pain's just, he's ready. He's ready to, when he's ready to get back to, you know, the way he used to be. But his pudding is very inconsistent. And in fact, the caddy said from putt to Putin and pure, the pain wasn't even setting the Potter up in the same way every time. So they gave him the Seemore Potter. They showed him what it was all about. Payne Stewart practiced with it for a day and said, this is the best thing I've ever seen. He wins the tournament that week, four months later, he wins the U S open at Pinehurst greatest fighting performance and major championship history. So this brand isn't even six months old and it's all of a sudden associated with what is still probably the greatest puck in the history of major championships. For sure. We'll find the most. So you know what a start for a brand, you know, you, as a marketing guy, you would dream about a couple of things. You dream about a technology that's actually clearly different and visibly different than everything else. And you've got that. And then, Oh, by the way, how about the greatest binding performance and major championship history? So anyway, that's the backup,

Paul: 5:15

That's when it like just blew up, right. They had the idea, they create a really cool product. And then through fate, right? Like it got in the hands of pain and then, you know, it would probably would take taken years for people to realize how amazing the technology was. But then it's like, and back then there was really no internet. I know it was like the early internet days, but nobody is on it. So, I mean, just to that kind of exposure right away, like just launched it. Right. Like that's insane. I knew that store. I just couldn't believe that. I mean, honestly, the RST is like pretty much. It's awesome. Like, I was actually the first Potter you give me, I don't know what you want to talk my head right now. But like I was using it with my, with my, the pro I work with and he's like, let me see that. And he took it and he like, shot like one part and he shot it and he's like, Holy crap. He was like, this is amazing. I'm like, I know, right. He's like, is it going to have it? And I'm like, no, you can't have it. So I'm like, you can buy your own. So then he's like, I'm like, well, you can use it like this week or something. He's like, all right, cool. And he still hasn't given it back to me yet. That's okay. Because I'm assuming this week, but, um, but no, it's like, it's crazy how it works because it's hard to explain, I guess the best thing to describe is like shooting a gun. Right. I mean, that's the technology kinda, but like, you know, looking down at scope, looking down at your putter, you know, whether or not you're in the right position and then whether or not you're set correctly. But yeah. I feel like, I think it's just phenomenal and, you know, so, you know, obviously I don't know what happened to pain, which was horrible. Um, I remember that day. And so then I'm assuming, you know, the years after that was kind of rough right. For the brand, obviously, and then you guys came in in 2006 now I met your, I met your other partner right. At the show who's in California, right? Yeah. He's cool. He's really nice. So then how'd you guys acquire, like what happened?

Jim: 7:02

He and I had been actually with Odyssey from the early days. So we had had a background in, in golf. So, you know, we were both involved with the Odyssey putter brand when it was a small, independent brand. Right. So we saw how a small brand to grow, you know, when it had a meaningfully different technology, you know, at the time that that brand had come along, you know, really the, the story was inserts and soft inserts for very hard golf balls. And, you know, years later we said, you know, the golf balls had softened up. And so, you know, not say anything bad about that brand, but the original reason why the brand was created, it's sort of, um,

Paul: 7:38

I never knew that.

Jim: 7:39

Yeah. And so we kind of felt like, you know, and then, I mean, there were two ball putters and there were other putters out there. And, you know, we felt like they're the next frontier and putters was, um, alignment, you know, because again, um, almost everything that's important about putting has to start with somebody is having perfect alignment. And, you know, there are plenty of potters out there, big mallets that have big lines, but you know, those sometimes trick the golfer into, you know, just using the top of the Potter to try and align up. But what they don't have is they don't have that calibration of themselves to the Potter. So they still end up aiming way left or where they're aiming. And then they just, you know, they, they push the ball out to the right or they aimed to the right and they pull the ball to the left. So again, we felt like there were alignment devices on a lot of putters that we're touching on, but we didn't really like they were, um, doing the job. And that's where we felt like there was an opportunity. And I mean, Cody is Cody works the tour and he sort of works our R and D lab here. And, and, you know, we've got to putting studios and constantly working with golfers, even though, you know, even though the brand has had these unbelievable experiences on tour with Zach Johnson, winning two major championships in Payne Stewart, I mean a little tiny brand with no marketing and not paying to our players

Paul: 8:56

To win three major championships at three of the top five golf courses in the world. I mean, Pinehurst st. Andrews and Augusta, but what's really cool about this brand is, is that the average golf, you know, whether that's a golfer trying to break a hundred break, 90 break, 80, you know, the country club golfer, this technology is even more spectacular. It's a shot saver, big time. I mean, it's deadly accurate. That's, that's the truth. And then all the different head designs you guys have, you know, it's like you in the new, the new hozzle design you guys were showing at the show and that we just reviewed, like, I don't know, it's a game changer for sure. Especially for the guy that like wants to break 80 or break 90. Like, those are the strokes you're going to get because you can actually get the ball in the hole. Right. Like, so then Cody and Ted work the studio all the time. What do you guys think? I mean, Ted Cody, you guys, you're working constantly as instructors with students. I mean, tell us about some of those experiences for sure. I want to hear about this. You've done, you know, putting's not one of the things that most people go out and they, they think that they think of hidden drives. You know, we, we see, you know, players like de Shambo and all those guys that are just bombing at these days and that, you know, putting's not one of the fun things they go out and Hey, look, let's just go make a ton of pots on the, on the potty in green. That doesn't seem like a really fun thing to go do for hours. Right. So, you know, I mean, I think one of the cool things that we've been able to do and the brands be able to do is the technology has stayed the same for over 20 years. I mean, look at any other brand out there and tell me one technology that has really stayed the same. You see faces change, you see colors change on potters. This alignment system has stayed on a pottery and stayed true throughout town because it reinforces a, you know, like Jimson reinforces the line that reinforces what we consider core fundamentals in your setup in golf is being able to in the Potter better being able to get set up to the Potter the same way. And as you mentioned, Paula, you know, like looking down, you know, the side of a gun, or we relate it to like shooting free throws and basketball, you know, you want to be fundamentally sound and you want to try to create a routine of doing it the same way from the same position, to be able to develop better touch and better feel and accuracy. And so if you're not going to put a huge amount of time, like tour pros end up being able to putt, and you're not going to go do it for hours, at least you're going to be able to know that when you go out and you get set up, you have a system on the back of every single one of these potters, that's going to be able to tell you, Hey, look, I am getting in the correct position and I'm putting the Potter down. I know my face is square. I know the shafts in the same position, I'm controlling the law so that I'm getting started in the same position. And that's going to help you return the Potter back to a consistent spot so that you can develop some consistency, not only in your putting stroke, but where the ball is starting and where you're aiming. And those all from the tour level down is what we're trying to accomplish, right? Whether it's in a full swing or especially in potting, because you know, it's not a huge dynamic train where we can aim, right. And curve the ball back in the middle, the fairway, we need to

Ted: 11:54

Be somewhat neutral in our potting setup. So, you know, we need to be, we need to have some form of feedback. So it's just really unique that we can have, you know, some type of system that guides us and helps us calibrate sort of each day that we can go out there. And that's, that's really unique. And it's on the back of all the potters. We just continue, like you said, sort of continue to be, try to be innovative with some of the designs we've created. And for this year, I think we've really created

Paul: 12:21

Really cool. Yeah, you did.

Ted: 12:23

I would also add that, you know, nowadays people are always looking for a quick fix on things and they might not know what they're doing with their pudding when they use a SeeMore putter, other than 10 Cody just told me to hide the red dot and it takes care of what Cody says. So many things and that's, you know, all, they have to remember when it comes to putting aim and they're already in the same spot. All in the same position. Loft is always square. Shoulders, hips and feet are square to your intended target line. Well, they don't have to think about that for every single putt where if you don't have some type of a reminder of the red dot and the white lines on the bottom of the putter head, well, am I set up the same way as my loft in the same position? Well, let me try this. This worked last time. Let me try to get in the same spot. Oh, let me have a little bit of an open stance here. No, this sets you up the same way, day in and day out. So the comfort of doing the right thing every single time, and it gives you visual feedback. So you actually know what a good putt feels like 90, you know, ton of percent of a lot of percent of people out there don't know what a good putt feels like. You ask a Seemore user, why they use a SeeMore putter and they could give you a nice five solid answers of why they use it. And usually that's what happens. Our Seemore user turns other players onto a SeeMore putter because okay, if it's working for him and I use that, I can save strokes out there two or three strokes around then. Okay. Then why wouldn't I want to at least use it or not only use it, but use it as a training aid. It's an ultimate training aid. So yeah.

Paul: 14:04

I love it. I think it's phenomenal until I was able to actually, cause I mean, I used them before I've used them before, like my friend had at one, I was using it. Right. That's the chorus. I'm like, this is really cool. And then I've worked with, I started work with you guys and I was like, Holy crap. It's like, it just, it changes everything. It makes us, you have to worry about it. Like, Oh, am I my setup? Right? Oh, it was, why am I not hit the ball correctly? Like, it's all the, as we'd done, like you just know, okay. Even at the very bare minimum, you know what you're doing with the Potter? You don't have to worry about that anymore. Right?

Ted: 14:32

Well, what we also do in the studio, we, we tell you the why behind everything, why it's so important. Again, the position wide length of butter's good. Why the loft is this way. So now you walk out or any SBI instructor given a lesson, you walk out going, okay, they've given me some good concrete information. And that's why, I mean, 40% of your strokes are given or used with the putter, but only 6% of lessons yearly are giving and putting because there's not really a good concrete system to give and putting lessons or, or putter fittings. I never knew that. And I think that's why you saw Jim mentioned when pain switch. Right? That's what my kids told us is. He's trying to figure out where to put the ball position, where to put his hand position, same, that's the same way. Uh, you know, a 10 handicap or 15 handicap is like, he's having those same questions run through his mind on hold two, three foot or on hole. One is like, Oh no, where should I put my hands on this next spot? Or the ball? Oh, it's the grass is green today.

Paul: 15:33

Fast is the crap on me?

Ted: 15:37

[inaudible] would say pain would say, okay, what putting stroke am I going to use today? And Hicks? He's just like, Oh my God, seriously, you're helping me pay bills. We need help. That's right.

Paul: 15:47

So if we, if we can eliminate a few, yeah.

Ted: 15:49

Are those just question marks in the head? Do you know, then we know where, you know, we've got a, a little bit of a clear mindset. When we set up over a pub, at least we're going to hit a better pot or at least trust ourselves to hit her better, but a little bit better confidence when we set up to it, you know, maybe we'll head up in the sways, put a better roll on it. And hopefully that's going to lower our number of butts around.

Paul: 16:11

Yeah. Like, I mean, you know, I've used it on, I was playing and I'm like, people are like, what is that? You know? And I show them and they're like,

Ted: 16:18

Holy crap. I'm like, I'm telling you like, so with the studios you have, like, what kind of development are you guys doing right now? Well, I think, um, you know, what we've talked about is the extreme functionality of a Seemore Potter, right? I mean, it's, they work, right? They will improve your product. And, and originally probably for Seemore's first five years, you know, the only Potter that anybody saw was the original FGP, uh, which stands for featuring ground. Nobody knows that, but that was the original sort of technical engineering concept there. And, you know, the original guys that invented, it said, ha w we don't need any other models because this, you know, everybody should use this. And, you know, they were, they were such believers in that technology that, that they just hammered that home. And then, you know, really tedding Cody, um, have sort of captured all of the training, part of our technology and put it into something we call the SeeMore putter Institute. So we now have, um, videos and in all kinds of lesson plans for fitters and instructors to use when working with their students. And so, you know, in some ways we're kind of like that little restaurant that's never marketed and you only have to discover us through word of mouth. But then of course, every once in a while we win a major championship and enough eyes come to this friend. And they're like, why, why aren't more people using a SeeMore putter, but we just, we haven't ever, we're small, we're tiny, which is, you know, we appreciate you behind the brand identifying these cool small companies that have great products that people may not know. And, um, so we're all about that. But if you fast forward, Paul, we also know the golfers, um, a lot of golfers, uh, achieve enjoyment in the game through things like just pine, really, really cool clubs and beautiful clubs and clubs feel great and all that stuff. So we did evolve from, Hey, we have the best damn technology, just use it and you'll get better too. Hey, what about all these golfers out there that are constantly seeking something new and improved and different? So going back to what Cody said, you know, Riflescope technology is our wheel and it's got, you know, the wheel is still working now.

Paul: 18:26

Yeah. It's the engine. Yeah,

Ted: 18:28

It was after it was created. So with rifle scope technology, we have all of our potters feature rifles scope technology, but we've enhanced the designs. We we've decided, Hey, we're going to go meet those golfers halfway because it's to get them introduced to our technology and the benefits of it. If we have to start doing some things in terms of really cool product development, we're going to do it. So we've gone so many different directions, adding the offset plumber, neck causal this year. It's incredible for that golfer that wants, that looked. And from a price point, Paul, I mean our golf, our putters, now that the simple way to think about our line is we sort of have a$200 line and a$400, the$200 line. We never tell anybody that, um, there's any sacrifice in performance, right? Any Seemore Potter you acquire, however you acquire it is going to give you all these benefits, but you know why the$400 line, I mean the$400 line is unbelievable. I mean, these things are sick looking. They're a hundred percent milled here in the United States, beautiful materials, stainless steel, and, you know, aerospace, aluminum, and other, um, select materials from time to time with private reserve. And, you know, we found that, Hey, a lot of golfers, they're like, Hey, no, no, the putter, Hey, putters, 40% of the game. I want to invest more in my Potter that I've invested in my driver, which I change every year.

Paul: 19:47

Yeah, exactly. And to keep this thing forever. So,

Ted: 19:50

So, so we now make, we think also not, not just our, you know, rifle, scope technology, which is gonna make you a better putter, but you know what? You want to have pride of ownership. You want to have something beautiful. That just feels unbelievable. When you look at it, you feel like it's a Rolex watch or it's a Ferrari are milled putters. So, you know, um, and, and, you know, the really cool thing is even for a tiny company like ours, the advent of the internet and word of mouth and reviews and all that kind of stuff, it really is great because you know, people, you know, you're not going to buy a product from a small shop. You have barely burned up without reading what other people say. But fortunately, almost everybody that's ever used to see more Potter has really great things to say. And so, you know, people can discover stuff.

Paul: 20:32

Yeah. Because like, when I had, it was at the chorus and most with my instructor, like him, he's not so much tons of structure. Like, he's like, Oh yeah. I use one of these like five years ago on the wino or something like that. I remember see, it needs a really cool and I'm like, and then he took it and he like, started putting with it. And he was like, Holy crap. Like, it just blew his mind. And he's like, I want, he's like, blah. Like he was going to buy it off me right then. And there, I was like, Oh my God. But I did let him borrow it. Like I said, but that's awesome. But I mean, he was like in love with it, like, like at that moment and it all took it. He was like, this is the best putter I've ever hit my entire life. Like, he's like, this is like, I'm not just saying this for the show. I'm being honest. Like, this is exactly what he said. I'm like, he's like, no, he's like, something's different about this putter. He's like, Oh, you know, I could see on his face. Like, he was just like shocked. Right. But I think that's the key right now is what I'm finding. Cause like, I don't know if you guys know this, but like, so my dad started like a training aid company, like in the late nineties. And when I got to college, like it was the same thing. Right. It was like Dawn of internet. How do you get in magazines? How do you, or how do you even get the word out there? You have a cool product. Right? And so it's like, you know, what I had to do was I just wrote letters to like every major company was like, hi, my or every major news organization slash magazine. It was like, hi, my dad has a training aid. You guys test it out. I'd find who the training aid guy was or the gear guy, you know? And like with the Dawn of the internet, that was the best I could do. And it was cool. Cause we got into, if you can get cool products in people's hands that are going to love it. Right. So like we got into tons of magazines and people wrote reviews on it, but that's hard even now like yeah, you can do Instagram, you can do whatever it is. But like, what I find is I feel like golfers are hungry for that information. They want to know. Right. They want to know what's really going to change your game and they don't care what it costs, you know, because they don't, they're golfers like, so they're always tinkering, trying to solve the problem. And that's why like, I like you work with you guys. Cause what solve a major problem. Number one. And I like exposing, I mean, I'm not seeing people or know who you are. I knew you were, I had already reviewed your products before I met you guys, but then I met you as people and I'm like, Oh, you guys are really cool. So, you know, I think one of the purposes behind the podcast is really just to expose people behind the company, right? Like, Hey, this is know if I called you right now. We had this conversation. It'd be the same, regardless of just being recorded or not. Right. So it's like, I'm like, why should do something like that? So people can actually enjoy it right. And learn more about these really cool companies, what they're doing, how they can help your game. And so that's one reason I really appreciate you're here because I think more people should know about this number one, because you can really save strokes. Right. And that's what it comes down to. That's why you're always buying stuff. But

Ted: 23:13

We've also kind of, um, Paul, you know, we've realized that it's not just our industry, but, but so many industries for some reason have gotten away from just great customer service. And I don't even know if there ever was an era of great customer service, but you know, from day one we said, that's really what we want to be known for. I mean, we, we, we know our product, we believe a thousand percent of our products. And we know that we also have sort of this training manual that can help instructors fitters and consumers themselves learn about how to use it. You know, you mentioned the more you learned about the more, the more you realized, Hey, this is nothing more than I appreciated it. And nothing comes easy. But what this Potter does is is that if you're willing to work just a little bit with it, it continues to give you great improvement, great feedback. And so you have better practice and then you're going to play better. Right. And so, you know, that's the really cool thing. But then we just said, well, customer service, I mean, let's, let's treat every, you know, w we go to the tour and I mean, we just will, you know, you'll just drop anything to be able to engage with the tour player. But we decided really every golfer has the same aspirations. And so Cody can talk about it. But our philosophy when it comes to customer service, I think is, is not, I don't know other companies don't execute it the way we do. And it's just, we just care about our customers. I mean, we want to become friends with them. We haven't texted us and call us on weekends. I mean, it's just, you know, this is really fun for us.

Paul: 24:37

It's fun. Yeah. It's exactly. You wouldn't be. I mean, you're, it's like me, this is all fun. A hundred percent fun. That's all it is. You know? And like, I love interacting with players. You know, anybody who's on my side, I always interact with them. They texted me that texts me, but they email me or send me messages, ask questions, and they'll go, Hey, what's a good putter. Right. And I won't be like, Oh, buy this one. I'll be like, well here, it depends on what you want to do. Here's three different kinds that I like, you know, depending on what kind of player you are. But I think that's kind of, what's great. Even now at the whole COVID and everything. You're seeing a big shift. I don't, I have at least that like online sales, right. There's key and customer service. Right. Because a lot of the brands that I work with are small to mid sized brands. I've talked to the big brands, you know, but I've worked with a couple of them, but it's different because they're big. It's like a big corporation, it's a Titanic. Right. But they're not as nimble. And they don't really understand stuff and whatever, but you know, I think people care about having that relationship with their, with the brands they support. I know I do want them to do.

Ted: 25:38

I think it's, it's sort of, you know, like anything, you treat people how you want to be treated. If we go to a restaurant or if we go to a donut place or whatever, we want that type of service too. And so, okay. We put ourselves in our customer's shoes and say, well, we need to do the same thing. And if it makes us, if we have to take an extra three to six minutes on a phone call to make sure that the person understands exactly what he or she is getting, then you know, it's not, not a problem, those lines. So I think that's what it is. We truly want them to become better in putting, and we know we have the answers to do that. And if it takes a little bit longer to explain it to them, some get it, it's like a light bulb and others, like Cody can test this and lessons. It might take a little bit longer, but okay. Then we just worded it a little bit differently. And you know, next thing you know, there, there are some moyen as we call them, they go out and spread the word. Okay.

Paul: 26:33

Koreans, you guys get a shirt that has that like a, like a alien looking dude. I don't know. Have you cool. Let me design it for you. Perfect. I like that. Yeah. I've talked to, you know, a lot of brands and it seems like the ones that I'm working with, it's kind of the same thing. It's like, you know, it doesn't matter how old your company is, as long as it's, I feel like it's the size. Right? And like, and whether or not you care about the consumer and if you do, cause I would always say, I'm just like, I tell people, look, I'm not a pro, I wish I was a pro. I'm not I'm that guy who China get better. And I got tired of not hearing the truth. Right. I knew I was being sold something because I would walk into the store. They'd be like, Oh, I don't know, try these things. Or I would read articles somewhere. I'm like, it's complete BS because I can see they're also advertising on the same page. You know? So that's kind of why I started the site in the beginning, but finding good brands, like Seemore makes it fun for me because I not only see what the brain can do and what kind of products they have, but I know they stand behind it and they're willing to educate the public on how to use it. Like your site, your site is great. Right. Cause tons of information, it's not like, Oh yeah, here's the buy this thing. I checkout goodbye. It's like, no, you want, all this thing works. It's how you use it. Here's a bunch of videos, you know? And I think educating people are not dumb. I think big companies think people are stupid. I really do because they're like, Oh, they'll buy whatever it is. No, we're not, you know, it takes me five minutes. I'll do a Google search. I'll figure out whether or not your full crap. So that thing is really cool that you guys do that

Ted: 28:06

And marketing driven companies. I mean, you know, they're driven, you know, they're publicly in a lot of them are public or even if they're not public, you know, they've got, you know, some sort of, uh, you know, investment capital behind them. They have demands for returns and you know, they just, you know, they start by, here's the revenue we need, you know, here's when we're doing our launches, here's when we're going to obsolete what we have. And I think, you know, as you said, golfers, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, you, you just, you can't, you really can't make something, you know, a totally new technology better every six months, you know? I mean, you just can't do that. I mean, I don't care how big your department is when you have something great, let it ride. So we've had it 20 years now. We've shown you that, you know, but we change our models, our materials, um, all kinds of things to keep golfers satisfied. I mean, to me, the most surprising thing has been how many, how many golfers Paul that loves Seemore they're addicted to it. It's sort of addictive technology. They'll never use anything but a Seemore, but they still contact us all the time about our new products. I know I want one of those and it's like, but you tell me, you're already putting great with your current putter and there yet, but I'm a golfer and I love collecting great golf clubs. And when it comes to potters, I'm only going to collect some more butter. So it's been us. I don't know Cody, how you feel about that. But I, at first I thought I would almost be offended that somebody wouldn't be satisfied with their Seemore, because if you want to just get one Potter for the rest of your life, I'd say just get a SeeMore putter. But for most golfers, they don't want to stop there. They love what we're doing and they just, they just want to enhance it. And, you know, putting greens maybe 20 years ago and then 10 years ago, and then five years ago, it's just started becoming better and better and better, you know, at one point, great, great greens were sort of the PGA tour. Right. And everybody else sort of like, yeah, I don't have great greens. So I'm not going to put a lot of money into a Potter when you know, I've got greens out there. But now, I mean, almost every golf course in America, even at the municipal level can grow fantastic greens because of the agronomy. And that makes the Potter that much more, you know, useful in terms of, Hey, wow. You know, I literally can have the same funding experience with a tour player.

Paul: 30:11

Do you? One thing I'm seeing a lot of is people like in the last, I would say three to three years, I would say is customization. Like, people love that. Like that is, that is where, that's where the that's where everyone's going right now. You know, it's like, they want to customize that putter in some way. However, it is not just putters by maps. I seen it with, you know, look at all like the golf gloves, right. How you can customize a golf club. And I was like a million different times, you know? Um, it's like, I feel like people want to be unique. Right. And I think that's one thing you're doing. It's like, we don't just have one putter. Right. And here it is. And the design it's like, we have all these designs, all these different finishes, all of these different hassles, right. It all does the same thing, but it's like, whatever you are as a player, what you want to look like in your bag, whatever it might be like. That's, I think that's very, I think that's great that you guys are doing that because people want that. I know, I know I do. Right. We all want to customize our bags. We all want to customize our gear and just, I dunno. So

Ted: 31:10

We have a lot of essentially any Potter that you order from us, whether you get it from us or through wherever your favorite shop is, I mean, you can customize length and grip and lie and head Java, and then, you know, we've gone beyond that too. We can stamp them. We can change hate-filled colors.

Paul: 31:27

That's cool. It sounds like you guys are doing is really cool.

Ted: 31:29

Yeah. And we're kind of, because again, we're kind of this really cool sort of word of mouth company. The first people we're starting with right now are people that already sort of are insiders. Right. So we're, we're, we're telling our insiders, Hey, if you really want to do sort of something very cool and custom just contact us and we'll just, we'll figure something out. So we're in the process of sort of a soft launch of a custom shop right now. That's cool. Still, or potters with some really unbelief

Paul: 31:54

I'm telling you now customization is like, everybody's doing it. Like, I mean, not everybody, but a lot of everybody that I know that I'm friends with and I work with are doing some kind of customization. They're like, I can keep in stock. Like it's just, you know, like it just, I don't know, you saw that with like head covers, right. I feel it's kind of where it started. And then now you're seeing it with bags a little bit. Um, you're definitely seeing golf gloves, definitely, um,

Ted: 32:20

Tour experience. Right.

Paul: 32:22

See all these pictures on

Ted: 32:24

Social media outlets of the tour bags of these putters, that these guys on tour years that are just stamped and piece of art that are right. They are so cool. And they shafts and grips and paint. That's been one of the really cool things we've done over the, and we're

Paul: 32:40

Continuing to expand on is that a player could come in, whether they go through one of our retail outlets or one of our fitters, they could go in and not only could they go in and get fit for a putter, but customize it, how you can go in and get the right link, no matter what that is. It could be 33 and a quarter inches, and you could get the right line going in the right loft and you can pick a pink grip and a cool head cover. But now going in with a, you know, with a whatever and all black shaft or a, you know, get your initial stance, change the paint fill. And, uh, Jim mentioned sort of a custom shop and maybe changing some of the finishes and just continuing to expand on that and making it sort of like your own and making it a true piece of art and PE it's a, it's a club in the bag that we use the most. Why wouldn't you want to spend the most money on that part of it? You know, we're always switching out our drivers, right. We always are. And they're always being sold on what the next new model is and why it's better, which sell a bunch of bull crap. And, you know, your irons are going to keep for awhile. Obviously, probably you're happy with them. Know I cut my arm for 20 years because it did the job, you know, but I think the putter is something that you can definitely customize because you keep that forever. Right. And you don't have to keep it in your bag. You can have it in your house. You can have it wherever. I mean, it's still a work of art, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, you can, like, you could have five Seemore putters and depending on what head you want to use that, like, it's almost like accessorizing, you know, like, like what looks good in this bag? You know, have five bags in my office right now. Right. And they're all look different, but they're all different. And I don't know. I just think that I fit, uh, I have a guy that I fit here. That's a, you know, a pretty good player. And Jim probably knows who I'm talking about. He's smelly. He, uh, he has, I guess he has, he's got a, you know, a work Potter, uh, you know, a golf course Potter, maybe a second home butter. And there, we just did a little customization. They're all the same. HeadStyle, they're all the same length. They're all the same line. Two of them are silver. Now one of them is black and they just, they all have their different homes, you know? So that's the thing, right? Like we're guys, we assess arise. I mean, that's, I really want to be unique. I don't know. I just really think different paint fill in each one of them. Like you want that. I know I do. It's like, why do people tweak out their cars? Right. No different, like, I don't know. I just think you guys make wool butters. I know they weren't a hundred percent. They weren't. There's no doubt about that. I just think it's really cool that even, I didn't know, you were talking about, you guys are starting to do a customization that was not planned for right question, but I think it's how you guys already had it before, where you can change, you know, whatever head style you like, you know, do you want, you know, a mallet or do you want something else? You know? And then it all kind of mouth do you want, do you want this kind of like, you guys have so many, it's so cool. I don't know. A lot of people don't do that. They say, okay, this is our main putter, that's it? Sorry. So it's very advanced, I think. Well, and I think, you know, as Cody said, I mean, we're trying to treat every golfer, you know, the same as we would a tour player and he

Ted: 35:38

Had a tour players. Never. Okay. They never get it exactly right. The first time. I mean, it's, it's a process, right? You're a serious player in this process. Right. And so, yes, the SeeMore putter itself will bring you a long ways there in terms of where you need to get. But in the end of the day, that doesn't mean that you start, you may start off with the blade and then all of a sudden feel like, well, maybe the mallet was a little bit more, you know, the way to go. So we never leave you hanging. You know, it goes back to the customer service, right. We encourage an after purchase relationship and people love that

Paul: 36:11

Guilty. Right? Cause they want to support, like, that's what I think is so special about this podcast at least is like, I just look at it is I want to support my friends. Right. And I want to get the word out. But I think once people learn that who these people are behind these brands and care about their story, who who's really what they're like trying to do that this is not a sales call, right. This is more like, Hey, what's going on? What are you guys up to that people want to support that brand? Like they feel connect to that brand and you don't see that with the bigger companies. Right. It's almost like they have to do the marketing in order to get in front of your face. But like, I don't know. I feel like that's where the big, at least since like Instagram came out and all these other, you know, social media platforms that consumers more aware of what's out there and they want to support. I know, I know that for a fact. So I've seen it everywhere, but I mean, I think what you guys do is the technology is amazing. I was blown away. Like I said, the first time I used, I was like, Holy crap. And then, you know, hanging out with you guys at the PGA show was a lot of fun. Cause it was honestly, you guys are really good listeners. Like these are really good dudes. They're so nice. Like honestly, they're just nice people. And like, that's what I would write this copy about when I spend my time with. So

Ted: 37:21

We love the fact that, you know, see more, w w when you have a Seemore Potter, you know, you're part of our family, right. And just like you are Paul. And it's like, it's really fun. People will send us pictures from vacation. Hey, here's me and my other three playing partners always see more putters. Everybody that ever goes to Pinehurst takes the picture next to the big Payne Stewart statue with the Seemore Potter and say the Andrew's Augusta. I mean, it's, it's fun that, you know, they just feel like, okay, yeah, they're avid golfers. They're serious golfers. They love their equipment. They love all, you know, they love stuff. But I think they just having special feeling about our brand because it is more like a family. And that's really cool. I mean, there's, there's brands like that, that a lot of people just want to be affiliated with. And, you know, so how do we get the word out there? You know, we're not spending money on advertising. You know, we are, we're doing, we're putting content out there as well. I mean, you mentioned that, you know, we gave you a few tips on the, on the podcast equipment. I mean, Ted Cody, myself decided the effort podcasts, you know, we're like, well, you know, I mean, we're all about putting, I mean, and people are just, you know, it's,

Paul: 38:26

You guys are killing it on your podcast. I saw your doubt.

Ted: 38:29

I wasn't, we, we started this thing called the funny couch and it's a lot of fun. And you know, it's only about potting, but sometimes we've talked about instruction. Sometimes we talk about the mental game. Sometimes we talk about tour stories. Sometimes we interview guys that are, have won on tour or competed on tour. Now, lately we've been, we've been starting to interview, you know, maybe other people affiliated with our company. Like maybe somebody that supplies, you know, we had a guy that does a, a grip that we did that we really, really like, we've done called the Garson grip. And, uh, you know, we're starting to put on our, our fitters and our instructors because they all have their own stories. And, you know, that's the really cool thing. So the Putin couches out there, I mean, Ted is sort of our, uh, you know, our main, uh, content creator when it comes to our internet sites. But the funny couch spent a lot of fun and we're at 30. So, um, it's, it's been a lot of fun. You put it out there, you know, people enjoy it and they share it. So it's a lot of fun. That's a good way to learn about us and the company. And it's really, really fun for guys that just want to be better golfers. And they're looking for information, you know, the trend has been for 10 years, it's all been, been all about fitting when it comes to irons and woods and drivers. Now that sort of come to potters and we're at the forefront because if you really want to get fit for a Potter, okay, then you know, we have a system and then we also have a really great way to deliver you that custom built putter, right? I mean, it doesn't really matter if somebody, you know, could go and fit somebody. If that company can't deliver a trustable and Potter exactly. To a unique set of specs. And that's one of the reasons why I think we're starting to take off right now is because people are realizing, Hey, you know what? Golf's really important to me. I spent a lot of time on it. I spent a lot of money on it and you know what, I'm going to get fit for a putter. And I don't think people were talking about getting fit for a Potter even five years ago. That much, no

Paul: 40:25

It's switching. I think Damon and I were talking about this same thing. Like people are tired of not being sold the wrong product, right. Or not being able to like, you know, you buy a set of irons from a major manufacturer and you get it ended up links were wrong, even though you ordered the spec. You're like, what the hell? Right. Because they don't think, you know, but sorry, go ahead. I was, sorry.

Ted: 40:47

I think also a lot of fitters like us as well, because what Jim and Cody said, we can do, you know, quarter inch, this lie, this loft, you know, this grip, it gives them options, which make them look even more precise in the putter fitting. And then also their, these fitters are finding that they're opening up another line item in their sales that they haven't done before. And so, you know, we're always looking for fitters to contact us if they're looking to increase their revenue, just because of that fact, that that might be one hole in their old whole fitting process. And if we can give them a system, reliable system and then product that we can turn and 48 to 72 hours, you know, it's a win for everybody. And then what we find is that once we get a fitter and instructor that gets behind this, I mean, they're just there, they're fitting everybody because all their, all their students are coming back saying, yeah, this has been a game changer. And so, you know, you just create these pockets. So as a brand, we've been very content to do that sort of one customer at a time, one club at a time. I mean, of course we'd love to see this thing explode more quickly, but we're also very careful about remaining very, very authentic. And we don't really want to have to be pressured or forced into doing anything. That's just not in the best interests of our golfer friends. And so, you know, we're yeah. Sometimes we do. We do, we have been telling a very similar story for year after year after year. And we think that that's, that's authentic. And, uh, and you know, we still see so many people on the inside of golf, whether it's caddies, whether it's publishers, whether it's, you know, we're sort of an insider's brand. We see them every couple, three years. And the first thing they tell us that that's the one club that never leaves my bag.

Paul: 42:33

The, when I was at the Phoenix open, like, like I was watching that, but putting right, all the players were just playing as tons of players pudding, but I saw like one of your putters on a bag, you know? And I got all excited. I was like, Oh, awesome. You know? And then like, it just cool to see it. Like, I, you know,

Ted: 42:48

I don't know. It just cool.

Paul: 42:51

They're like when you see your friends brands, even though you're, you know, relatively large brand, I feel like, like you see like, Oh, awesome. You know, because I think getting it out there and the results you get with it is just, you know, it's hard. Right. I know that it's hard to get the word out. That's the hardest part about all of this. It's just hard to get the word out when, you know, you have a great product and it just getting the word out to the people it's like, try it. Right. Because there's so much noise. Right. Or did you so much money being spent by big companies that like, they don't really know? And all the golfer wants to do is get better. That's all they care about.

Ted: 43:23

Right. So, yeah. I love driving by golf courses and looking on greens and, you know, it could be 50 yards, a hundred yards away if I'm looking for that black portion, the bottom of the shaft. Yeah. Like, yeah. Alright. We got another one. Yeah.

Paul: 43:40

You don't even care which model it is. And that's the fun, right? That's the fun that you guys still do this, like yeah. It's a business and yeah, it's a company and, but it's different because it's fun. And it's like, I don't know, like it wasn't fun. You wouldn't be doing. Yeah.

Ted: 43:59

And you know, we also, again, one of these things that, you know, we, we encourage our fans around the world. I mean, if they ever visit Nashville, come on by, you know, and you know, their eyes light up when they come and they see our operation, we show them, you know, they meet us, these kind of see where their Potter was made. And so we have people come by all the time. That's right.

Paul: 44:20

We've got two budding studios here. We show them. And then we obviously custom build all the potters

Ted: 44:26

In the, uh, in the back here at our studio here in Franklin, Tennessee, just South. And now I've been to Franklin Franklin about 20 miles South of downtown 20, 25 miles.

Paul: 44:37

Well, it's a nice area. I like that area growing like crazy. Isn't it really cause that's my, as there here's the story. Like I went to Purdue for undergrad and one of my really good friends was from Franklin. We drove down from Northern Indiana and like played golf. His dad, I think there was like a, um, is there a Saturn plant there? Like Saturn cars?

Ted: 44:56

Yeah. That's where his dad worked.

Paul: 44:58

And I remember seeing a snake on the, on the green. That's what I remember from the golf course. It was dead. It was flat, but it was a snake. And I was like, I live in Arizona. I've never seen a snake on the green. I go to Franklin, Tennessee though,

Ted: 45:08

Fricking dead flats snake on the Creek.

Paul: 45:11

I was like, that's really weird, but no, everyone's nice. I know exactly where it is. Is there any questions?

Ted: 45:17

Last question. Is there anything I haven't asked today that you guys were like, man, you should've asked about that or is there anything going on that you guys want to talk about that I haven't, we haven't been able to cover

Paul: 45:27

Like anything new coming out or this year or anything. Cool. I think we're covered the biggest thing. Yeah.

Ted: 45:35

At the custom shop, which we talked about.

Paul: 45:37

Yeah, I got the, I got that out of you. And I was, you know, the RST hozzle was a

Ted: 45:43

At the PGA show obviously, which was a, you know, sort of, uh, something that I think Jim had as a drawing right there. He could get in more to that, but it's sort of a, you know, it's a really new, innovative plumber, neck fries, and it's really neat because it opens up a new market for us. So we're excited about that as an intention and a compliment to the rest of our line for 2020. So that's something that we've made a lot of positive sort of feedback on as a compliment to the line. So there's seven cool new models, uh, that, that feature that new, uh,

Paul: 46:12

Oh yeah. You're saying that. I remember you saying that in the email, like there's only one, right. That isn't habit or something or they all have it. Yeah.

Ted: 46:18

We have a lot of options, not everyone, but a lot of options.

Paul: 46:21

That's really cool. Yeah. The RST is really, or the plumber neck is cool. It's super cool. It's super cool.

Ted: 46:27

It's cool. It does everything we've ever wanted to do in terms of alignment and also just for a plumber deck. It also, it happens to swing on a more balanced plane and just find any other plumber neck you ever going to find. So we think it's really, once somebody starts potting with it, it's like, wow, not only can I use rifle scope technology, but this Potter is very, very stable. And most plumber deck designs are not like that. They require a bit more control and manipulation. So because of the design of this and the way that the hozzle is situated is very, very stable. So, you know, we're, we're excited about it. I mean, it's way outside of the box for us, but again, here's a perfect example of us. Okay. We're established enough. We were very, very comfortable with our sweet spot, our comfort zone, you know, relatively straight shaft potters, but we've added a double band and that's been very successful, but people went on tour with that. And now the RST hozzle again, it's in its infancy. Most people have never seen one yet because of COVID and what have you, but the worst timing in the world, right? This is going to be a really breakthrough design, always takes time when, when you're a small company, but we're really excited about it. And you know, we're very global. I mean, it's, it's cool, Paul, that every day we get notes from people not just around the U S but around the world. I mean, really look 50 countries or something like that. Over the course of a year, somebody is going to call us and contact us and say that they want to build a custom Potter. So, you know, a lot of countries will never visit, but how cool would that be to go to a place, you know, uh, the Czech Republic, Russia, you know, and every country you could ever imagine in Asia, and you could find somebody with a Seemore Potter. So it'd be, it'd be really fun to go to a place like the Philippines and all of a sudden, see

Paul: 48:18

Till it's over the bag and goes, Oh crap.

Ted: 48:22

He's like, get out. You know, word gets around. It's a community they've seen Payne Stewart. They knows that Johnson's one of the best butters of his generation. And, you know, they know that's probably how they originally heard about it. And then the cool thing is, is with a website, they can go and read about it. They can translate it to whatever language they want and they can get the story. I think one thing we, we could add is that Paul, you mentioned about, you know, your pro picking up the putter and man, this feels solid right off the bat. And I think a technology that we have and Jim hinted on it was the FTP featuring ground plum is that the majority of our putters want to return to square the face to squared impact every single time. And so we have some great videos out there that talk about this. So, you know, if we can set you up in the right spot again, ball in the same position, posh is same way. And now the putter is swinging with you and you don't have to manipulate the putting stroke whatsoever because the face always wants to return to square every single time. So now you're hitting a solid strike and you get that feel that's coming off that putter head. So that's one thing where all of a sudden someone with a Seemore first time user goes, wow, this feels so much different than my other putter, because their putter might be open to impact a little bit. And then they gotta adjust kind of manipulate. But our putters always want to return to square every single time.

Paul: 49:45

The technology is amazing. I mean, honestly, and it works like it just makes putting so much simpler. And then when you, when you, I mean, you know that feeling, you hit the ball in the hole from a far distance. You're like, Holy crap,

Ted: 49:58

You don't need to try anything else. Well, it's funny to you, you have someone who uses a Seemore with that technology, and then they go back to their putter for a little bit. And then they go back to the Seemore and they say, okay, why is this one feel a little bit different than mine? What's the reason behind that? And you tell them and show them, then all of a sudden it clicks again. Well then, okay. I can feel it and I can see the difference and I'll take yours.

Paul: 50:21

So is there a story real quick? So I had a friend come over, I have a big putting green in my garage and he, I had to see more putter out and I don't remember, Oh, he brought his putter over. Cause he was going to show, he just bought this$400. Plus I don't even know what brand it was. It was expensive. And he like hit my Seemore. And he was like, he's like, what the heck? And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, this is Seemore putters. And he's like, this is better than one I bought. And I'm like, sorry, bro. And then like, and he's all excited by his player. Then he all depressed. I swear to God it happened. Like, I totally forgot that story that I'm like, Oh my God, let's see more. So, yeah. Then he didn't want to buy it off me. But he said to check it off mine, I'm like, yeah, your first sucks, bro. So it's ugly. That's I told them I was like orange. I think it was orange. I remember this was like six months ago, but that's true. Story

Jim: 51:08

Know Paul, one thing that we haven't talked about, you know, we haven't really elaborated on is the fact that people, when they use a Seemore front of, they always say no matter whether and whether it's our$200 putter or a$400 punter, typically after using it for a little while, we'll say, I just love the feel of the Seemore Potter. And it's the feel is that what they're feeling is the feel of hitting the ball in the sweet spot with the proper loft and the face angle squares. So, you know, it doesn't if, if your, if your, if your stroke improves and you're bringing it back to square. And so you're making impact where the loft is at the sort of two to two and a half degrees or one a half, one and a half to two and a half degrees at impact that you would want it. And the face is square. You're actually hitting it in a sweet spot. Way more than when you didn't know when you didn't have a system of where to set the Potter down. So you can, you can spend a thousand dollars on the material, but if you're not hitting it in a sweet spot with the proper law and the proper face angle, it's not going to feel good. So a lot of times, one of the really surprising benefits that people feel with a Seemore Potter is that unbelievable feeling of just a great sort of like hitting a forge club right in the sweet spot. That's cause you do hit the sweet spot more often. And then what does that mean? Well, it means that your putts, your distance control is going to be a lot more consistent. And again, you're going to be tighter to the hole. So you still have to read the grains. I mean, there's a lot of things in pudding beyond just the Potter, right. And you know, it's, you know, every, every part is different and they, you know, breaks or, you know, you, you have to become a, to be a great, great Potter. Ultimately you have to become a pretty good green reader and you have to have other systems for, for consistent, you know, speed control and what have you, but with a Seemore Potter you're well on your way, because you've got a headstart you've, you've put a check and it's reliable. You know,

Paul: 52:56

The battle is done. Now you got to deal with the grass, right? Like, yeah.

Jim: 52:59

And focus on that. You can focus on the line and the speed because you know, your stroke is going to be improved.

Paul: 53:04

Yeah. I, I, I love my SeeMore putter. I have two of them. I have one right now. Cause like I took one, but I have to, but you guys are, I really appreciate you guys being on the show. I appreciate all the help you've given me in the last six months, getting this podcast started and I enjoy our friendship. And so thank you for being on the show today. And if you go out to the audience, check out some more putters, I'm telling you right now, you will not be disappointed at all and you will definitely save strokes on your game. I know I have. So thanks again.

Cody: 53:36

Fantastic. We really appreciate it, Paul. Thanks. Thanks Paul. Thanks for sharing man.