Jake Thurm has been named one of the “Best Young Teachers in America” by Golf Digest for three consecutive years. His students will tell you why. Jake’s instruction offers a unique combination of physical and mental guidance, customized for each student and informed by technology and analytics. He never gives the same lesson twice. A fundamental tenet of Jake’s instruction is that no two players swing precisely alike. Because of this, he works to understand the unique biomechanics of each student. Data allows him to assess and not guess. Then, he tailors his teaching to help his students discover their most natural and effective swing.
The Chicago native draws on his deep knowledge of the game as a former all-conference golfer and protégé of legendary instructor Dr. Jim Suttie, as well as from his background in clinical psychology. The result is an innovative mind-body approach that has earned accolades from PGA Tour winners, including Kevin Streelman, James Hahn, Dudley Hart, and Chip Beck. Jake has worked at over 100 PGA Tour events, including all four major championships, and appears on the Golf Channel as an expert commentator.
Jake is highly regarded in Chicagoland golf circles as Midwest Director for the USA Junior National Golf Team and Nike Junior Golf Camp Director at Fresh Meadow Golf Club in Hillside. He also operates golf schools at Ruffled Feathers Golf Club in Lemont and is on the Master Staff at Club Champion in Willowbrook. Whether working with PGA pros or promising young players, Jake identifies a common trait in all his students. “They are serious players passionate about improving their game,” he says. “When that’s the case, I’m equally passionate about helping them. And I know I can.”
Jake Thurm has been named one of the “Best Young Teachers in America” by Golf Digest for three consecutive years. His students will tell you why. Jake’s instruction offers a unique combination of physical and mental guidance, customized for each student and informed by technology and analytics. He never gives the same lesson twice. A fundamental tenet of Jake’s instruction is that no two players swing precisely alike. Because of this, he works to understand the unique biomechanics of each student. Data allows him to assess and not guess. Then, he tailors his teaching to help his students discover their most natural and effective swing.
The Chicago native draws on his deep knowledge of the game as a former all-conference golfer and protégé of legendary instructor Dr. Jim Suttie, as well as from his background in clinical psychology. The result is an innovative mind-body approach that has earned accolades from PGA Tour winners, including Kevin Streelman, James Hahn, Dudley Hart, and Chip Beck. Jake has worked at over 100 PGA Tour events, including all four major championships, and appears on the Golf Channel as an expert commentator.
Jake is highly regarded in Chicagoland golf circles as Midwest Director for the USA Junior National Golf Team and Nike Junior Golf Camp Director at Fresh Meadow Golf Club in Hillside. He also operates golf schools at Ruffled Feathers Golf Club in Lemont and is on the Master Staff at Club Champion in Willowbrook. Whether working with PGA pros or promising young players, Jake identifies a common trait in all his students. “They are serious players passionate about improving their game,” he says. “When that’s the case, I’m equally passionate about helping them. And I know I can.”
Today we play golf. Let me show you how we do it in the pros. Welcome to Behind the Golf Brand podcast. I never missed with the Seven Iron , a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf. My friends were the golf clubs. I lived on the golf course, I lived
Speaker 2:On the driving rein from Pro Talk . You should learn something from each and every single round. You play to fun from on and off the green. Why would you play golf if you don't play it for money? Just let me put the ball in a hole. This is Behind the Golf Brand podcast with Paul Libert tore . What's up guys? Welcome to the Behind the Golf Brand podcast. This week I have my good friend Jake Therm , instructor extraordinaire. We're talking all about his career , uh, the coaching he's been doing, both where he lives and on the tour and kind of ways he's up to right now. So welcome to the show. Thanks,
Speaker 3:Paul. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2:So where are you located? So
Speaker 3:Right now I'm located in my basement and , uh, so I'm in Naperville,
Speaker 2:Illinois , a basement that's like, you're a Pebble Beach
Speaker 3:<laugh>. So as , uh, as Puff Daddy said, I traveled the world and ah , yeah , yeah . Um , I , uh, my, my favorite place on earth, and this is, I'm not even trying to be original or cute . My favorite place of any place I've ever been in the world is Pebble Beach. So I thought when we bought the house, I was looking at it down here and I wanted to do kind of a replica par three of number seven. Um, you know, maybe the , maybe the best short par three in the world. Um, but , uh, so I have that down here. It's a lot of fun for the kids. I wish I got to use it as much, but really , uh, I have three boys and , um, gosh, if they're not , uh, wearing out the simulator or wearing out the chipping and putting green, then uh, I've done something wrong as a father.
Speaker 2:So how big is your basement? Is it big ?
Speaker 3:Um , yeah, it's sizable. I mean, there , the , I mean, the part you'd wanna know is that the bar is over there next to the arcade game . Oh ,
Speaker 2:dude. That's cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So we got , uh, the
Speaker 2:Arcade machines in there too. Look at you. You like me, you ,
Speaker 3:Yeah . Again, I wish , uh, I wish I played them. Uh , I know as much, but I just like looking at 'em. So , uh, yeah, no, I've got down here. I've got , uh, I mean, I, I I don't know how old you are , Paul, but , uh, I'm 40, turning 45 soon,
Speaker 2:Bro . I'm 45.
Speaker 3:Are you ? So, I , so you'll appreciate this .
Speaker 2:I look 45 . You look 35 . I wish I looked like Jake.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. So , um, some good jeans . You , you'll appreciate this. I've got , uh, Atari Star Wars from 1983 over there. I've got NBA jam over there. I've got Teenage Ninja Turtles over there. Golden Tea , of course. Uh, mortal Kom , uh, Pacman , uh, asteroids , uh, Terminator two over there. So Oh , I love
Speaker 2:That game.
Speaker 3:So, so
Speaker 2:Those , like , those are the best games due to our generation, like going to Arcade. I spent a million dollars at Aladdin's Arcade when I was a kid.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Uh , and , and you'll appreciate , I think we've probably lost half your , uh, listeners right now, but , uh, you'll appreciate
Speaker 2:This . Oh , everyone's like us, bro. They're like, <laugh> . I'm gonna , I'm gonna go That dude's the basement <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Did you ever see , uh, the show Silver Spoons back in the day?
Speaker 2:Yeah , the train, the kid The train,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Is the train around the living room. And then he had an arcade and I said, you know what? I , I know I'll make it when I have an arcade in my house, so that's sucks .
Speaker 2:My story , my story is my arcade. So like 20 years ago, my buddy was like, Hey, you wanna build an arcade machine with me? And I was like , uh, sure. How much is it? And he is like, oh, it's like 500 bucks. We can do it over the weekend. And I was like, okay, let's do it. And so we like, it was, dude. It took us two and a half months and I bet I spent two grand, right? Yeah . Like, because once you started like, I don't want it to look like. Right? So then it's like, you know, you build it, but then it's like, oh, we have to get, like, so then I found all the original , so I wanted, mine looked like Street Fighter Two . So I found all the original stickers, like this is 2002, dude, like the original, original, like stickers from me , arcade Machine, the Cabinets, like not remake. And I , from Street Fighter Two Champion Edition. I found that like, I made it like , like the real deal. But my arcade machine plays like 12,000 games right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah . There's a few of them . Some of 'em down here pay , play , you know, 12, 14 games. Some of 'em are just dedicated. Uh, it's funny you said Street Fighter too . I I, we could talk about this for the 45 minutes, by the way. Hell yeah, we could , uh, asking
Speaker 2:Fighter too,
Speaker 3:There , there's two .
Speaker 2:Who's a player ? Who's your player? Let's ask that question.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's two kinds of people, right? There's Mortal Kombat people and there's Street Fighter two people. Now, the funniest thing is, if you would've asked me back in the day, I would've told you I'm a Mortal Kombat person, but I just told this to one of my best friends. So he comes down here and I go, I'm like, I gotta get Street Fighter down here. And he goes, well , I thought you were a Mortal Kombat guy. And I go, you know, I was as a kid because of the fatalities and the blood and all that. And he goes, yeah. And I go, I go, yeah. I go, have you played Street Fighter too ? And he goes, not in a long time. I go, it's way better than Mortal Kombat. I mean, and that's all Mortal Kombat has is is all that kinda stuff. So that
Speaker 2:All I got, it's like the five buttons are all weird, like block in the middle,
Speaker 3:Like , what's that ? Yeah . No street fighter's a way better game. I , I just didn't know as a kid, I just wanted to take someone's head off. So , um, so yeah, mortal Kombat's down here, but , uh, Paul, you've inspired me. The next time we talk I'm gonna have to have a street fighter to cab down here. Yeah. 'cause it's a way better
Speaker 2:Game . I , well , I , my marque machine like is broken right now. 'cause like, this thing's so old, I gotta put a new monitor in it and like, you know how hard to find a monitor that fits the right size. Like back then it was easy, but like now it's all flat panels and. It's like, do you know, it's like I don't have time to go figure, man . I prob I have to figure out how to get a new monitor. Like I have , get a new monitor. The last time I did , I bought some old TV and like offer her up from some old lady and like, it died like a year later. So now I have to buy like a real computer, like a real whatever. But,
Speaker 3:So it's funny you say that 'cause I have ACRT over there in the corner
Speaker 2:Terminator .
Speaker 3:So I have ACRT TV and I have all 10 video game consoles that I own owned, and I have 'em on a switcher. So you can play all the games , uh, on a switcher, on an old tv, on original hardware. 'cause I got a raspberry pie that played on the, the 80 inch TV over here. Like any game, NES , Sega Genesis, all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 3:But I still like playing it on the original stuff better than the emulation. Hell
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude.
Speaker 3:So , so I got ,
Speaker 2:It's still made . I feel like it's delayed on the emulation
Speaker 3:And it , and it totally, yeah. Go play Mike Tyson's punch out on delay. I mean, you're gonna get your kicked, right? Yeah .
Speaker 2:Seriously.
Speaker 3:So I, so if you came down here and if that's your jam , uh, I've got the, my 10 I, I kept them all, and , and I'm a little, you
Speaker 2:Have all your old , you all your old consoles.
Speaker 3:Oh , oh, yeah, yeah. No. So there's a wall behind me over here that has, yeah . So I probably have about 500 NES games. I probably have
Speaker 2:Shut up .
Speaker 3:No, no, it's all back here. And then I got , uh, I got, I got a little over a hundred SNES games, probably about 50. Sega Genesis . I , I went back and it had, if I got rid of it, remember when we used to give it all to, we'll , we'll say GameStop, but it wasn't called that as a kid. It was called Babbage's. But , um, remember you , we give that all, they'd , we give them and they give us like two bucks for it or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The all or 50 cents or whatever. Yeah . Stupid.
Speaker 3:So I went back , uh, so I had , I still had a lot of 'em , right? But I went back and I got all the ones that I sold my soul for. And , um, so I have 'em all back. Plus the ones I, I, I'm , I'm not actually looking to get every single game ever made, but I, I got back, well now I'm getting close, right? But I wanted to make sure I got the games also that I really wanted when I was a kid. So I got that all. And my, my boys that , you know, there's a PSS five and a switch and everything, but my boy , but my boys like the old stuff too, right? Oh , wow. They love, they love like, you know, super , my my youngest, my four year old's upstairs playing Super Mario three right now. I guarantee it. That's
Speaker 2:The best game ever. That's the best game ever, dude. <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:That's pretty good .
Speaker 2:You know, I , I , I remember in sixth grade, that game came out and it was summer my buddy got that. And that's all we did that summer of like 1989. That's all we did. Right ? Hundred . That game was like, dude , look at , we took <inaudible> golf, I was like, this what Nintendo games. So
Speaker 3:I'll , I'll , I'll, I'll , I'll wrap this into golf.
Speaker 2:No, you don't have to. This is great. This is great. <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:Kevin Streelman and I, who's a , a player that I work with. And it also is one that I grew up with him and I you'll love this. Him and I have a bet, so I'll try to make this long story very short. He, he also, he loves it down here. He just, he tells everybody on tour. And so if you gotta go in Jake's basement , um, so 'cause of the, and not because of the , he could care less about the putting green. He is got a putting green, right? He's like, you gotta go down there for the arcade . So he gets his son, his youngest son, this little handheld , uh, Contra game, right? Contra one I , yeah , yeah. Contra one . And so the original, so he goes, he goes, have you played that? I go, oh, Kev . I go, I , I play contra a few times a year. And he goes, I, I go, I saw that handheld. I go, I didn't buy it. I go , 'cause I have it and I can play it on so many different things. I go, I go, how is it? How , how's the game play? And he goes, oh, it plays really good. I go, oh, cool. I go, it does the con the konami code and all that kind of stuff. And he goes, no. I go, oh, the handheld doesn't do it. I go, that's la uh , I go, that's a tough game then. And he goes, oh , that's
Speaker 2:Super hard. It's impossible, dude. So three lives,
Speaker 3:Right, Kevin? Kevin goes, yeah, it's impossible. And I go, it's not impossible. I go, it's just really hard. And he , he looks at me like, he goes, are you saying you could be contra without the code? And I'm like, yeah . And he goes , uh, yeah . I I I assume we could swear on this, right? Yeah . He's like. He goes. And I go, I couldn't do it. I , I , I go, I go, I have to get some prep. I, I go, if you're asking me to do it right now in front of you, I go, I need some , I need to practice a little bit. I go, I go. But I used to, I go, I used to beat it all the time with the co I got bored with the 30 lives . So I challenge myself . I go, I used to beat it all the time without the code . And he goes. So I'm like, so right now him and I have a hundred dollars bet and I am currently in training to , uh, so the next time he's in Chicago, I only get one shot. So I'm going to like sit down and , and I Oh,
Speaker 2:You die. It's over. Yeah. You'll get one shot. And
Speaker 3:I , right . I get one shot in front of him . Well , I will die, but I, I just have to beat it without the code. I'll definitely die a few times. But , uh, and the , my only stipulations was, all right , if I'm gonna do this, I'm not playing it on an emulation with a delay. I'm playing it on my tv on my Nintendo
Speaker 2:With my control. Yeah . Right. Yeah .
Speaker 3:And I go and I go and I'm gonna be a hundred bucks richer. So I'll let you guys know how that goes.
Speaker 2:You got me a freaking , you gotta make a reel of that or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a hundred dollars bet. A hundred dollars bet . And , uh, no code. I get three lives. And of course , and of course as you go, you do get extra lives as you get scores . So just no code beat contra.
Speaker 2:Oh, I wouldn't know that because I always cheated. So like, I don't know , <laugh> , I didn't , I didn't know that. So,
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it , the funny , the funniest thing is everybody now that knows that a lot of my clients know that bet and stuff. And so they go, how's it going? And I go, eh , I go, I keep dying in the en energy zone <laugh>. So , so I actually haven't done it yet. The , the the eight nine year old me is very disappointed in my performance thus far. 'cause he was way better than I am now.
Speaker 2:Yours . That documentary, that guy who wanted to beat the record of like, what was it, like, what game was that? Like Donkey Kong Kong ,
Speaker 3:Uh , donkey Kong Kong . King of King of Quarters. King of Quarters.
Speaker 2:Yeah . King of Quarters .
Speaker 3:Yeah . But didn't ,
Speaker 2:Did they say the dude cheated or something? Like now they're saying like a year ago it was like an article, like the dude cheated or he had an emulator or something. I don't remember. Everybody was like, what?
Speaker 3:Right. Yeah. So they take that stuff really seriously. And uh, he had it in his, the documentary. And there's another guy in it that, the guy that , uh, had the, the perfect package . The
Speaker 2:Guy who looks like a wizard.
Speaker 3:Yeah. He cheated. The guy with that originally broke a million on Donkey Kong. Uh, I , I don't think was accused of cheating, but I , I can't remember the name , other guy , but the guy that looks like a wizard who had the perfect score in Pacman , uh, yeah, he cheated. Yeah. He had never ,
Speaker 2:I like , have you seen that documentary? I did not think this conversation day was gonna go like this <laugh> . So did you see that? Did you see that documentary or that thing on Netflix about the video games? Like the five part series about video games
Speaker 3:That made us
Speaker 2:Oh , everything so freaking good .
Speaker 3:I loved it.
Speaker 2:Loved it . I watched like twice. I was like, oh , I remember that. I love that game. Oh , I remember
Speaker 3:My , my favorite moment this year. So like I said, I have a , I have an original Pacman over there. I walked into an , we went to Disney World for the family, and I walked in and they always have the arcade at the resort, you're saying . And there it was sitting in the, in the back. No one's touching it because they got all these other better games.
Speaker 2:Right . The prize machines. Yeah. And like the,
Speaker 3:Right. So I, I go, I go, you know, I just go back there and I'm like, I wonder what the high score is. Right? And then I saw it and I'm like, oh , I could beat that. Right? So my <laugh> , so in front of my, my son filmed it on my camera. I'm like, Tristan, I could beat this high score. I , you know, I can, I do it at home. I I have a way higher square at our home thing. So I did it like live while he videoed it. And I, and , and again, it's not any good for people who are really good, but it's pretty good for, you know,
Speaker 2:Champion Disney World Hotel.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. Yeah. That's an animal .
Speaker 2:It's nine year hotel . It's a four year old . It's a four year old Jake Thera not the nine year old <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the , so if you see the high score at the Pacman, at the Animal Kingdom Hotel, whatever they call that place , um, bro ,
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go there tomorrow. I'm gonna fly to, to Florida and beat that. That's
Speaker 3:Me just to like , dad . Oh , well, you let me know. And then I'm coming back <laugh> because I screwed up at the end.
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Anyways , back to golf.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2:Do what ? Do what happens? I mean, you know, you know, this guy's cool if he has that whole freaking thing in the basement, <laugh> . I mean,
Speaker 3:Like,
Speaker 2:You know, his wife asked to be cool too, to let him do that, because otherwise he'd be like, oh, hell to the, no , I used to have the arcade machine in the house, and she's like, forever at that , at a pool table. And she's like, no , we're gonna move that outta here. And I was like, all that's fine. Whatever. But I miss play mar
Speaker 3:E every , every wife is cool. Uh, as long as you're not married to them. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:I I , I have cart blanc in the basement and in the garage, and I have no input on the rest of the house. I can assure
Speaker 2:Were you lucky you have a basement? I wish I had a basement. Like, honestly, I , like, everyone comes in my garage and like, oh man , your garage is so cool. And I'm like, did you see the rest of my house? Like , I don't wanna do anything anymore. <laugh> like , you know, but like , but pre-kids, you did, like, you had your own room, probably your own. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then once you have kids, they're like, no , you just, your stuff gets smaller and smaller and it gets moved to an area and you're just
Speaker 3:Like hundred
Speaker 2:Percent main . Yeah .
Speaker 3:Yep . It helps having three boys here. It is kind of, for my wife, it is kind of man land , uh, with , with three boys all in sports, golf being one of them, but hockey and baseball and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it , I mean it's, there's a , like in their rooms, it's all sports theme . It really is man land for my wife, so she can have How old
Speaker 2:Are , how old are kids?
Speaker 3:I have a , a 12 year old, a nine year old , and a four year old .
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:So I'm home. I'm home right now with the four year old . And like I said, he's upstairs playing right now, so he'll be occupied while we do this.
Speaker 2:That's cool. Yeah. I have a , I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old boy. I have boys too, so I know what it's like. Cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But
Speaker 2:My wife likes having boys. She's like, oh, I love being the only girl in the house. I'm like, thank God I freaking girls. My buddy has a daughter, dude. I'm like, oh, there's no way I could handle that. Like, there's just no way I could like, I'm like , I don't know how you do . I don't know , man. He is like this. Then we went on vacation together and he was like, bro, you're so lucky of kid . You have boys. He's like, it's so much easier. I was like,
Speaker 3:That's what they say. That's what we were, I , I , I'll be honest, we were trying , uh, 'cause there was a delay between the nine year old and the four year old . Right. We, we , uh, we were trying for a girl on the third, but ultimately I can only hit one ball flight, apparently.
Speaker 2:Oh , darn.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So ,
Speaker 2:You know, you went like this, you're like, yo , <laugh> <laugh> , you got another boy <laugh> . I remember when I had my son, like my dad and I high five each other. Like, we saw when in the , during the ultrasound, we like high five . Like yeah, we got boy, you know, not like, yeah. But , so, all right . Did you grow up in Illinois then, or what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so grew up in the , just outside Chicago , uh, in
Speaker 2:Naperville.
Speaker 3:I , uh, so I live in Naperville now. I actually , um, I grew up , uh, apart half the time in Westmont Downers Grove , uh, went to Downers Grove South out here, 97. And then I played , uh,
Speaker 2:Shout out.
Speaker 3:I played , yeah, yeah, there you go. I , I just had my reunion. I'm , uh, ashamed to say , uh, I think it was 25 years, whatever it was. Um , you went to it , so . Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I like <crosstalk> , bro .
Speaker 2:I went to my 10 and I was like, I don't wanna see these ever again. I care <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Uh, it , it does help that you're all connected probably on social media or somehow, so you kinda a little bit caught up to speed, but , um, you know, I, yeah, I , no, I like going to that. It's , uh, it's like you ever see the movie Romeo and Michelle's high school reunion?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like , you know , you , you , I , I like all the people that go there and tell you that they in invented post-Its, and like that. I like all the lies. So , um, I'm a pe you know, I'm a I'm a coach man. I'm a people watcher by nature. So I thought I would hate it, and I actually loved it. And , um, yeah, so shout out there. And I, I played , uh, I played golf all through high school. I played golf in junior college, and , uh, uh, I all finished my undergrad at a small school in Illinois called Milliken in Decatur. Uh, got my degree in , uh, clinical psychology as it applies to child and adolescent psych. And , uh, you know, played on the golf team there. And my mind was always , uh, you know, so I was a child abuse investigator at DCFS, and then I was a respite worker for the DuPage Board of Health. And , um, you know, I just , uh, it was hard. That's a very hard profession. Um , oh yeah . You gotta be pretty tough. Yeah. The , the stuff that you see on a daily basis is, is really , uh, tough. 'cause then you gotta go back and reconnect into your own life. So people in the behavioral sciences are willingly taking on other people's problems to go with their own. So it , it was really difficult. So it kind of brought me doing that for a little bit , uh, brought me back to golf and I thought the , the thinking was, well , obviously I just wanted to help people. So , uh, I was a decent player , um, so why not , uh, help people through golf, and maybe that'll be a little bit easier than , um, than, you know, kind of what I was pursuing at the time. So , uh, I started learning from a lot of great mentors , uh, many of which are in the Hall of Fame. You , you said , uh, earlier. Jim McClain was on , uh, uh, a little bit ago before me. And , uh, he certainly has been a, a great friend and a , and a mentor and someone I very much look up to. But , uh, Dr. Sutty , Bob Toskey , Jimmy Ballard , um, macro Grady, all these Hall of Fame teachers I got to spend around. And, and then a lot of the, a lot of, I guess what I'll call my peers , uh, have been very kind to me over the years. The Harmon family's been great. Claude Harmon iii , Sean Foley , um, you know, all the , uh, quote unquote su superstars in golf instruction. Um, you know, it's funny, it , it's a competitive business and it's a competitive environment, but , uh, I guess I've always kind of managed to do that , um, and be respectful. I've, I've always believed that you can't coach all these players, so don't even try. So , um, they kind of know , uh, e either that or they're not threatened by me. So I guess that would be the other <laugh> other thing. So , um, yeah, no, I've had a lot of great mentors and friends that has helped me out along the way. And I'm not a big believer in a self-made man. I mean, any, you show me any self-made man, and I'll show you a lot of people that had their back that believed in them. And if , uh, you know, if anybody out there is listening and, and they don't feel supported by those that are around them, then get, get different people around you. You know? So that's, that'd be my advice in general. Yeah. So
Speaker 2:Then what year did you start like, getting serious about golf again?
Speaker 3:So, you know, I, obviously my own game , uh, I don't play that much. Um , I'm on, anyone that follows me on any social media channel knows that I'm pretty much relegated to a par three player with my little guys until they hit it further. Um, so , uh, but in terms of when I started kind of picking golf as a career , um, that would've been right outta college around 2002, 2003. Uh, though I was interested in instruction, I was always interested in instruction. 'cause I used to, as a kid, I used to watch, there was a local, it was my, it turned out to be my junior coach. It was a local pro who , uh, had a lot of good junior players. And I would always get done practicing, you know, hitting 500 balls a day, chipping and putting for, you know, 2, 3, 4 hours. Uh, and then waiting for the course to open up again and going out and playing. So in between, you know, you eat your sandwich or whatever, and I would just watch him teach, not because I was trying to glean more information. I actually never thought I figured if he was talking to that person, it really wasn't for me. It was for that person. Yeah . And , uh, so I , uh, I was always amazed at how somebody could make a suggestion and then suddenly , uh, there'd be a change in the ball flight. And, and then there'd be a change in the golfer's demeanor, right? So then there'd be like, oh, you know, so that they'd be, you know, happier or, or at at least less sad. And , uh, and , and because there's, there's a glimmer of hope, there's an opportunity here. So , um, I think a lot of great teachers probably wasted a lot of their time. And, and the reason that they're great teachers now is that people come to them , uh, with their expertise in how not to waste their time. So, in other words, if they're going to truly do this, if they are gonna dedicate the time, then uh, time is valuable. It's the only thing we can't buy more of. So , um, so if you are gonna dedicate the time, a great coach, probably with their own game, wasted a lot of time, and what you're really purchasing , uh, from them , your return on investment is that you won't waste your time. Uh, you know, the very little that you have. I mean, mo I do teach professional golfers, but I mostly teach professional people and professional people have careers, families, all this kind of stuff. So they're , they don't , a lot of time , They don't have a lot of time. So they have to maximize it, maybe even more than APGA tour player who's going to industry leaders work 10 to 12 hour days. Right? So that would be APGA tour player. So APGA tour player for 10 to 12 hours actually could , uh, in theory , um, not maximize that time, but still have enough time to overcome that. Whereas a professional person , um, they have , you know, they play once a week, they get to the range once a week , uh, for an hour. And , uh, ultimately what are they going to do? You know? So it's really maximizing the time that they have towards improvement and making sure their goals align with , uh, you know, their , their , their , the amount of time they have, but their current skillset , where they're at, and , uh, you know, where they'd like to go.
Speaker 2:So like, you got outta college. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And then , Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Were you working in the other profession first, or you, and you were just golfing, getting back into the game, right? Like, 'cause you're just for fun, right? Or your hobby, or whatever it was. And then when did you say like, you know, I had enough of this serious, right? Like, and what does your, your probably your , your own mind right, to deal with? Like, when did , what your , when did you decide to like, you know , I'm gonna try to do golf, like maybe instruct, like, how'd you go through that process?
Speaker 3:Sure. So , um, I, I never really stopped playing outta college. I , as you know, my game was pretty good outta college. 'cause I, I just finished college golf
Speaker 2:Who to college at ,
Speaker 3:Um , Milliken University in Decatur. So , um, I played as an amateur. I played in the state amateur multiple times. I played in the state open multiple times as an amateur. So I was still playing, I was still playing competitively , um, you know, making the cuts in those events , uh, and so on. So , um, uh, after that, so what made me kind of decide was, was really, maybe it was had nothing to do with golf. Um, it had to do with, you know, one of the, the , the darker things that I had seen. And , um, I won't get into that, but , uh, I will say no .
Speaker 2:Yeah . Traumatic,
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 3:Like , yeah , I don't really bad
Speaker 2:Too heavy stuff. Like
Speaker 3:Yeah , yeah. Really heavy stuff. And , and the funniest thing is my mom asked me, she goes, you know, she goes, I , I , I tried to protect you from all of that. And, and there you are going head first right into it. You know, it almost as if to say, what did you expect? So , um, yeah, it's, it's wanting to help people. Uh , the funniest thing is I never set out to teach PGA tour players. I actually just wanted to work with juniors. Like I said, my degree was in child and adolescent psych. So , um, I only wanted to , which might help me with tour players when you think about it. But , uh, but I, I actually just wanted to work with kids, and that's what I was doing as a respite worker. A respite worker work works with mentally ill children, the top 13% of mentally ill children in DuPage County. So basically goes, all right , so what, what are you doing with them ? I go, well, it's basically a mentorship program. You are doing activities, but you're being there with them , uh, connecting with them and being a good example for them . So the funniest thing is I go, well , why, why can't I do that with juniors? You know, that wanna be good players? 'cause by the way, with the kids that I worked with in the respite program, guess where a lot of the times that we went to, I'd take 'em to the driving range , or I'd take 'em to even mini golf . I'd take 'em to , uh, a par three course , and we'd go out there and it was a great opportunity for them to put the devices away. They're gonna spend two hours with me anyways, and just to move, walk, and talk, right? So , um, it was kind of this, yeah, it's this, in it's uninterrupted , uh, uh, flow of communication. And , um, you know, I don't wanna overstate my own importance, but I , uh, in , in this regard, I , I will say that I, I found it in most cases to be very positive , uh, with the , with the kids that I interacted with in that program. And I, I, I found golf to always be a positive. They, they become very cur , you know, when they get connected to you and stuff, they become curious about you. And I would be like, well, you know, I played golf in college. And they're like, well , either they had played or they had wanted to play or, or show me and all this. And so it was always a positive there. And, you know , uh, in their lives that was, you know, there was a lot of negative. So , uh, I just wanted to do that with juniors. So I , my whole goal was not to teach tour players , it was to have one of the best junior programs in the Midwest. That was it. And then we had , we started having a lot of success with juniors , uh, you know, state titles , uh, and high school
Speaker 2:Was this , this is like, like , what year was this?
Speaker 3:Um, you know, we , I started having it , it , it's very fortunate, right? I started having success local , locally pretty much immediately, even though my clientele base wasn't enormous. The funniest thing is if, if a, if a junior showed any ability, I really took a interest in them . So , uh, I didn't have a huge clientele. So I would take 'em on the golf course and play with 'em. I'd practice with 'em, I'd write out their practice plans. I'd say, go do this. I would have them. And then all of a sudden, you know, they , there was college scholarships coming for a lot of my juniors. There was , uh, trophies coming for a lot of them , uh, Illinois Open , uh, Illinois Women's open , uh, state high school, state championships. A few of them got one back to back , um, D one college, college , uh, college scholarships. So , um, I started having success right away. And the funniest thing is, it was actually mostly my female players at first. Um , and then it just turned into juniors in general. And , um, you know, and that when you have success with players , uh, it really starts, it plants the seed. That's your marketing,
Speaker 2:Right ? It's working like it's working at the end of the day. That's what people want. They want it to work, right? They're , they're , so , it's like they're , you don't have to go market yourself. It's ,
Speaker 3:They're , you're , I tell
Speaker 2:Who you're is doing it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I , I tell this to instructors all the time. They're like, you know, tell me something about teaching that maybe I haven't thought of. And I said, okay. I go, do you, do you , uh, charge for your time? And he, they go, yeah, you know, I, I charge whatever, and it's per hour, right? I have an hourly rate. And I said, okay, well, did it ever occur to you that they're not actually paying for your time? They're paying for an outcome, they're paying for a result? And did it ever occur to you that you could achieve that result in five minutes and not an hour? I go and I go, case in point. I go, have you ever been involved in a lesson where, you know, right away they just, you know, they start hitting it better and this is what they should be working on. But you look at your watch and you've got 50 minutes left, and they go, yeah, all the time. And I go, so why do they need 50 minutes? <laugh> left? Uh, and the answer is, because you said that that's what they pay for. I go, I call it results. Uh, it's solution based learning, right? So it's all results based . So what I kind of started to do back then was because I was achieving results, I realized that's all people wanted. Now, sometimes, maybe it's not five minutes, maybe it's, and maybe it's not an hour, maybe it's three hours, maybe it's whatever, maybe it's go onto the golf course with the client, stuff like that, course access and stuff like that. But that's what they're paying for. They're paying for a result, not for your time. And I always tell people, I'm not that fun to hang out with unless it's down here in my basement. So , um, you know, we're , we're here to make players we're, it's better people through golf, but it , uh, but the better people play better golf. So once I feel like that is accomplished , um, you know, it's time to go to the next person. And I completely admit that I, that I , uh, took this model or this, I originally got this thought from being around Bob Toskey , who is 94 years old and still teaching. Bob Toskey would line up on the driving range back in the day, in the seventies and stuff, he'd line up these people on a driving range. They would pay , uh, to have to, to eventually see Bob Toskey , though they didn't know what time , uh, to have lunch, to have all these golf balls. And they just hit, and then in that line would be a rank beginner. And in that line might be Tom Kite, right? So , um, and then the funniest thing is you didn't know when Bob, he's like, you saw Bob . He's right down there . He is working with person three people down. But you know, you didn't have a time that you were gonna see 'em . You just knew you were gonna see him . And it wasn't based on time, it was based on result. Um, in other words, once he felt like he got it, okay, good. Now go to work. Right? Like, do it right, because if I'm gonna ,
Speaker 2:You know , what , do now go do it a hundred times, right ? Or a thousand times. Like,
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Like o other than that, it's all filler. It's all fluff. You're just filling the air because you're stuck on this clock where you got, it's like, oh, I got hour , 45 minutes. What am I gonna say now? You know? So, and the funniest thing, let's
Speaker 2:Go , let's go put <laugh> . Yeah,
Speaker 3:Exactly. Well, and, and maybe that's the , maybe that's the answer. It's like, all right , you got a good idea. All right , cool . I learned a long time ago where people go, you know, I always tell people, Jake's a four letter word. Go ahead and use it on the course if you wish. I, I always say, but if you tell them I'm thinking too much, I go, I want you to list the thoughts that you have. And when I started cha challenging them, they're like, oh , I , I'm thinking too much. Okay, good. Um, only a golfer would find focus to be innately negative, right? And any other sport, we'll talk about the focus of Kobe Bryant, but in golf, apparently, if you have too many thoughts, you're too focused, right? I don't believe in such a thing. So I always, I would challenge the golfer right back. They say, oh , I'm thinking too much. Great. Okay, tell me, listen them , well, what, no . List all your thoughts. And I , what I realized was the first one or two, which they were probably saying, 'cause I was standing there , uh, the first one or two, I had something to do with, and the next three or four, we had never had that conversation before, ever, right? And they were hanging onto this like, it was gospel. And then finally I get to the point where I'm like, you know, why don't you just give me the keys on that? And then what do you mean? Well, it sounds like you're trying to fix five or six things. I just wanna work on one thing that perhaps will show improvement on five or six things, right? It's, it's , it's approachable. It's digestible, and you can do it as long as that's all you focus on. So are you thinking too much, not enough about the right thing, right? And you can't
Speaker 2:Fix everything at one time. You have to like, pick the one thing and you could maybe fix 'em all. Like you're thinking of it differently.
Speaker 3:Multitasking is the biggest lie. We've all been told. Multitasking is essentially , uh, be kind of at everything. <laugh> , right? We can handle all , but what ,
Speaker 2:Okay , what ? But what if you have ADD , right? And you're like, oh , I gotta do 50 things at once, then what happens? It's like, okay, what do you do in, that's generic scenario.
Speaker 3:We're it to quote Bill Murray, we are always better when we are calm and focused at anything. And, and on what I'm saying on one thing. Yeah . When
Speaker 2:You're in the zone, it's all you're thinking about. Not all that crap.
Speaker 3:Exactly. So a great teacher, and I get, I get a lot of people that , um, you know, they research me, but they've also research researched everybody. They have what I call rabbit ears, right? A great teacher , um, uh, gets a , a client to focus only on one thing, and then , uh, the rest of it could be important eventually, but it's extraneous in this moment and un and completely unnecessary, right?
Speaker 2:It's like, offers are worried about like what they're gonna do three shots ahead , right?
Speaker 3:Instead
Speaker 2:Of worrying about the shot they're taking right now. Like, oh, what if I hit it in the sand? And then this happens? Like, bro, you've, you haven't hit the driver yet. Like, how do you even know you're gonna hit in the sand?
Speaker 3:Right? It's , uh, it's, you know, it , there's, there's a lot of power and opportunity. So , uh, if you wanna be known as having ice water in your veins, right? Actually, I don't believe in that at all. 'cause I've seen a lot of my players shake like a leaf. Um, but it's, it's the power of opportunity. Like I don't care how tight the fairway is, or I don't care how long the putt is. Um, all you need to do in that moment is ask yourself, is it possible to hit this fairway? The answer's always yes. Uh, is it possible to make this putt? The answer's always yes. And if that's your last thought, then go, right? And I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I will , I I'm not gearing any teeing , guaranteeing anything except that all you actually truly have in golf is the execution. That's it. You don't actually own the outcome. If you, if we could control our outcomes, we would, and we'd all shoot 65, right? But all you have truly is the execution. But people deprive themselves of the execution through worry, through , uh, uh, again, what they tell you is thinking too much. I consider actually to be a lack focus on one sole purpose.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about it that way, but I , I mean , I agree.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like for me, if I'm out there thinking about my, what , how are my feet set up correctly? Am I da da , da , am I da da da ? You start going through all these like checklists of the last 30 years of your life, of what you've been told what to do. And then you go and dork up the shot because you were thinking about those 30 things that just hitting the ball because your body already knows what you , 'cause you've practiced a thousand times, right ? Um,
Speaker 3:One of my favorite books for people that still read , uh, if anybody out there still reads I do , uh, is , uh, came out in the last few years, it's called , uh, chop Wood Carry Water . And it's , uh, basically the way to become a samurai Archer. And for the first year of that guy's life, he gets to learn how to breathe and how to stand. And , uh, basically it's all based on a true story , uh, written by the author. So , um, it's
Speaker 2:Based on Jake's Jake's life, because Jake
Speaker 3:<crosstalk> Well, it , there, there was a lot of, there was a lot of parallels there. So, you know, through that first year or two, he's sitting there going , uh, do we ever get to shoot any arrows <laugh> ? Yeah . You know, and , uh, it , so basically , uh, the , the answer always is that , um, chop wood carry water was his daily tasks. And they said, yeah, you will eventually, once you , uh, kind of master the simple, once you master the daily and, and, and we'll get to shooting arrows, which eventually they did, but the, the first year was , uh, standing and breathing, right? So the funniest thing is what you just said there. You're like, wow , how are my feet, I've been told about my feet? Well, then that's a person that hasn't dedicated enough time to execute, to master the simple, where they obviously still find the need to have to think about it. Think about this. I'll challenge you with this. Why in the world would you have a swing thought? I'll, I'll answer it for you. 'cause you don't trust yourself enough to do it without it. So you are actually training mistrust and then wondering why you don't perform up to your capabilities.
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny you say , I kinda remember when I was , I used to be a pilot back
Speaker 3:<crosstalk> . Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I remember an airline pilot told me once we were talking about sh shooting approaches, and he was an airline p for a big airline. And he is like, you know, you , you have gauges and you have your lines and whatever you're tracking, whatever. And he goes, he's like, he's like, it's kind of like when you're driving a car, he's like, imagine you're driving a car and you see the lines on the road. Are you staring at the lines the whole time to make sure you're on the road? Or like you just know it's there. You know, it does its thing. It's like, you gotta think of it the same way. It's like, if you were focused so much on those lines, you'd probably crash the car. But if you're not, you're just focused on flying the airplane, right? And then glancing down to see, to make sure you're still on tracking . And the same thing you're saying right now, it's like you have to trust when you're driving a car, you're trusting yourself. Like, I'm not gonna drive off the road. Right. And I'll stay in my lane. But you're not focusing on staying on your staying on that line, right. Or inside that line. It's like, I mean, it's a good way of thinking about that.
Speaker 3:Uh, how many times have you missed your mouth while eating?
Speaker 2:Never. Well,
Speaker 3:<laugh> ,
Speaker 2:I'm sure it might say differently. <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah. So , um, you know, it , it , it , we should actually , um, reach the point of automation on certain things. Um, and people don't allow that to happen. You know, the , the , the process of mastery , um, unfortunately , uh, we are in very much , uh, a quick fix and , uh, uh, an an immediate , uh, result , um, and , and right now, right? And we're not taking the steps necessary to become masters. So that's the , I , when it , when we talk about my career and stuff, I , I am very happy with the , the , the fact that I don't feel like I ever cut a corner. Um, and , um, and basically being around the guys that I named before, who I would consider to be masters, trust me, I didn't spend the time in front of them speaking. Right. And I think there is a, a generational thing if we can date ourselves again, where there's a, a lot when you're younger, you feel the need to let, to try to inform everyone about what you know. And if, if I did anything right back then when I'm around these people or continue to be around these masters, is that it doesn't ma like, the only thing I could possibly know would come outta my mouth, but everything that I could learn would be going through my ears. So I just never felt the need to speak until spoken to , uh, when I was around these people and I was absorbing. And I learned way more , uh, yeah. Watching, but I, I learned way more over drinks at , at the bar and talking about a , a , a golf school that we had run, or a program that we, or , or a private lesson or a tour player that had come in. And , um, and the funniest thing is I would always ask leading questions, kind of like your job, right? I'd ask leading questions to get them talking, and that's when I did the most learning
Speaker 2:What , like for the audience out there, like who have you worked with on tour? Sure . Because you spent a lot of your career working on a lot of tour players.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So , um, uh, the roster is always ever changing, but , um, of
Speaker 2:Course, yeah . The ,
Speaker 3:The guy and, you know, and then sometimes you work with a guy, but he is just like, ah , you know, he is just kicking the tires . So the guys, I feel very comfortable telling you , kicking the tires . Yeah. Kicking the tires , right? Might
Speaker 2:It's like , yeah . It's like , like , yeah , they're row . He's like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:Might've been a guy this past week too that did that too. But , uh, the ones that feel, yeah, the ones I feel very good at , these are
Speaker 2:All the ones that are , Reagan flew halfway across the United States and was gone for a week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Drinking wine too. So, yeah. Uh , uh, the , the ones that I'll, I'll say that, you know, that I consider to be very good friends, clients, all that , uh, Kevin Streelman , James, Mark Wilson, Scott Gregory, Tim Petrovic , Dudley Hart , uh, chip Beck , um, golly, who else? Uh, oh, I'm forgetting people off my page. No , that's
Speaker 2:Fine. That's
Speaker 3:Cool . I was , yeah , uh, uh, Roberto Diaz , uh, Vince India . Um, you know, and then the funniest thing is , uh, that's all my own guys, right? Yeah . But when I was, when I was kind of mentoring under these great masters , uh, like I told you, I , uh, I spent a lot of time and I, not only talking, maybe playing nine holes with, you know, I spent a lot of time around , uh, Lauren Roberts, Paul Inger , Fred Funk , uh, rock , immediate . Wow . Um, uh, you know, all , all these, all these fine players from
Speaker 2:Margin Yeah. From the guys we watched when we were right.
Speaker 3:Peter Jacobson. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So , uh, so I, I've, I've either been involved with them early on, you know, this is going on 20 years ago now, back when they were playing, but , uh, a lot of 'em , I used to, after their lesson or whatever, with whoever they're going with , uh, they'd wanna go take it on the golf course and see if they can do it. So that , that's the funniest thing is, you know, when you watch how they conduct , uh, their lessons , um, it really shows you kinda what's wrong with how amateurs go about it. 'cause they always wanna get something that usable that they can take to the course almost immediately. Uh, Nick Faldo is another name. I spent time with Nick Faldo on a body track and case in point. So he had never seen his pressure trace before. So , uh, and I , I'm sitting here going into this thing going, oh my gosh. I go, you know, I'm gonna talk to a six time major champion. Oh , by the way, we're squares, right ? Uh, I'm gonna talk to a six time major champion. And here I am, the Woodridge Junior Open champion in 1996. And , uh, I believe he , uh, won the masters that year. So I'm like , uh, I'm gonna get figured out in a second. This guy's like a modern hogan. Um, you know, so I got a bone up. I gotta sound really smart, you know, this is like seven, eight years ago now . You're right. I'm a smart guy. Yeah. I'm the young, like, I'm gonna get figured out. YY you really quickly , uh, you, you have that feeling of imposter syndrome, right ? So , um, that's all time, right? So funny way , right? So , uh, it depends what room you're in, right? Um , exactly. So , so I , I , I think you're in the right room if you get that feeling. That's what I would tell you. If you don't have that feeling, you're in the wrong room. So , um, you're, you're with the wrong people. But , uh, so anyways, with him, I, you know, what I found is I found that he was very eager to learn that this was brand new to him. And that when it come to that, when it came to that, I was an expert and , and he was eager , um, I thought he would want it very technically. That's how I will always was told by the media. He is always so technical. He is so analytical. And then, you know , uh, to, to make it simple, I I want a little bit more of the pressure in his lead heel sooner , uh, as he, you know, transitioned into the downswing. So , um, I said something along that line, and he goes, you mean like squash a bug? And I go, yeah, but don't anger it. Kill the. And he goes, okay. So he does it a little, and, and obviously this is how good these guys are, right? A little something. He goes, I can do that. And he does it, trace, cleans right up on the pressure mat, and he goes, I can do that. I can go play with that right now. So the funniest thing is I thought he was, so what I, what I learned about Faldo is yes, he's very, he, he analyzes everything, but we, but remember, he's a player, so he analyzes everything, but he will convert it very quickly into a feel that then he can go perform. Um, he is not doing the theory of relativity over the golf ball. He has, he has analyzed something and, and converted it into something quite simple that he can do in the moment in front of people right now. And that's what great players do, right? Uh, I if , if if analyzing and knowing everything and having all the information , uh, made you a great player, then all the best teachers would be the best players. And were not, Nick Faldo took something complicated and made it simplistic so he could go play immediately. And that's the genius of Nick Faldo .
Speaker 2:So, like, the way Jake and I met was through Squares and like, can you kind of tell the audience like how you were introduced with Squares and like why you wear squares and, you know, kind of your background with what you're talking about right now with Jake, with , uh, sir Nick , like the same thing, like, can you explain to the audience that please?
Speaker 3:Sure. Um, so , uh, one of the, the first major I ever coached in , uh, was the, the British Open at Hoy Lake when Roy McElroy won , uh, almost pretty much going away. Uh, and , uh, one of my great friends is , uh, always been like a , like a big brother to me, has been Sean Foley . So, you know, when you first get out there, and this is my first major and your player's outperforming or whatever, you're probably gonna go have lunch with somebody that you know. So I knew him. So we sat down and , uh, it was 2014, if I'm not mistaken. And I believe Justin Rose won the US Open in 2013, if I'm not mistaken, at Marion . I noticed something in his statistics , uh, and we're big, you know, golf nerds in general, but statistical nerds . And I noticed that he had put on basically the equivalent of 10 accurate yards, meaning , uh, he was longer, but his accuracy numbers were the same, if not better, and , uh, off the t . So , uh, I mean, that's huge, right? Yeah . So I, I, I ask him, I , I go, what do you equate that to? He could have said anything. I mean, he , he could have said that it's an open-ended leading question to get the, the master speaking right? So , um, he, he said , uh, he could have said, he could have said anything. He could have said, well, me, you know, my teaching, it could've said fitness, nutrition , uh, you know, rest recovery. It could've said anything. And he, at that moment, there was something called a swing catalyst, and , uh, it was a force plate that was in the ground. Um, and he said he had gotten him on force plates and the changes that they made were more in the ground and not really truly detectable by the camera. So I thought that was like, and this is, once again, this is kind of like, like li younger Jake watching a golf lesson when he was a kid, right? Uh , this is like magic, right? I was like, wow. So, so the thing that changed was not detectable. I go, well, gosh, isn't that, isn't that really what teaching should be ? Right ? Um, in other words, I , I kinda like it when , uh, my players perform well and people can't figure out what the heck we're doing differently, right? So , um, so I was very enthused by that. So what I did is I saw that the swing catalyst force plates back then, I want to say were 30 or $35,000, and I wasn't inclined at that point to purchase four spikes . No ,
Speaker 4:I'm not buying that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right. I wanna ,
Speaker 4:I got RK machines to buy
Speaker 3:There , there we go. So , um, which are way cheaper, <laugh>. And so , uh, uh, at that point , so, so what I thought was, well, it's okay if I don't own this, but I do have to have an understanding of it. I have to have a detailed, thorough understanding of this, of what I'm doing to better, you know, better myself as a teacher. So , um, what happened is a guy by the name of Terry Hashimoto came out with a portable alternative to force plates in the ground, and it would be a pressure mat . So , uh, and that's what he basically was the pioneer of Body Track . Uh , and that came out of a company in, in Canada, and he's Canadian, so he saw golf applications. Now, body Track also got me connected with , uh, the PGA National Teacher of the Year . Mark Blackburn , who's a great friend of mine , uh, Sasha McKenzie, who's one of the game's leading researchers body track , got me access to these people and again, asked them a leading question and then just be quiet and let 'em go, right? So I learned so much, it , it really felt like an Ivy League education would con came to ground reaction forces as I was original owner of Body Track and the only guy that was using it out on tour at events. So , um, fast forward , uh, uh, Bob, who you had on your show , um, who's the , uh, you know, the , the founder of Squares , uh, got in touch with Terry Hashimoto, and here it is, there's this company that's saying, well, listen, how you interact with the ground is ver is important , um, that your , your shoes are a piece of equipment. It's not just a fashion statement, right? You're, you're using this to perform. It's a piece of equipment you use on every single shot. And from our testing, their testing, right, they're seeing , um, noticeable change in ground reaction forces. So , um, I, I was aware of that. I saw it, I saw the commercials with Nick Faldo . Uh, Bob got to know Terry. Terry goes , uh, why don't we have Bob send you some shoes? You use the , uh, force plates and, and tell us what you think. So I did, and it was a noticeable change. Um, the increased surface area of the shoe certainly helps with that. Uh, the stability of the shoe certainly helps with that. Um, and so I was noticing , um, some things in my own pressure trace , um, and ability to create force torque , uh, with the ground that that was changing, and that was, you know, very positive. So , um, yeah. So from that, that moment on , I, I honestly just ask Bob, I go, these are great. Can I have some shoes? <laugh> , right? I , I didn't really think it would go where it's gone, right? Uh, it's just a good relationship. I like the product. I said I would definitely play in these , uh, there's a lot of shoes that you wear that you know you can teach in, but I would never play golf in them, right? So , um, yeah, so that's how the relationship started. And then they started this Squares branded , uh, golf academy that I'm in with , uh, Jim McLean , uh, I believe Rick Smith is in that and so on. And, you know , uh, it's great because they're , you know, creating brand awareness, but it's also something that , uh, that you believe in. And to be honest with you, when you Google me, I mean, you're going to find a video or an article or something on ground reaction forces. So honestly, it was a perfect fit. Here's a piece of equipment that aids , um, people when they use it, and their ability to create force with the ground, which would, can lend itself to speed. And , um, I'm sorry, everybody. Hey , I love this golfer, right? I love this golfer. This is my favorite. It's like , uh, I already hit it straight enough, I just need to hit it further. I already hit it far enough. I just need it straighter. They both need hit it further. Um, because putting on distance gives you accuracy, and I can't, for the life of me, I can't figure out why amateurs can't figure that out, right? Um, if you are longer off , golf is a game about subtracting distance from the scorecard on the hole , on the, on the round. So I, I had a , a client recently that got fit. And so I , I guess what I'm telling you is most amateurs, most club level golfers should only make decisions based on distance. That's it. Um, because they will be more, everyone better than them is longer than them , right? And when you increase your distance, so case in point, this is a great story. Um, I also work with Club Champion , uh, locally where I send a lot of my clients there where they get fit and I work , uh, personally with , uh, the fitter , uh, uh, couple of the fitters in there where they know me
Speaker 2:Dial your dial in your player, like you know exactly what they need and you're Yeah , makes sense.
Speaker 3:You have to have that relation. I learned that on the PGA tour, you have to have the relationship with the club company because you, you, you both can help each other to help the player. So , um, I had, I had a , uh, client go , uh, he went in for an iron fitting and stuff like that. And , uh, I said, Hey, didn't you have your fitting? Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, not didn't yet. When they come in, I , you know, I just decided not to, not, not to get 'em, by the way, totally fine, because with my dealings with them, if, if they can't build something like better, then they, they like flat out tell you like, listen, you just keep playing those for right now. I can't build you anything . Yeah , keep your money.
Speaker 5:You don't need anything me right now. Right.
Speaker 3:And that's what I love about it . <laugh> just
Speaker 5:Need to become a better golfer.
Speaker 3:Right? Exactly. That's what I love about dealing. They don't give the hard sell, right? Yeah. Um, so anyways, I go, oh, I , they , they couldn't make you anything that, that was better. And, and he goes, well , uh, no, you know, well, you know a little bit. I'm like, well, how much, or, or , or how far are we talking? It was only like five yards further. And I looked at him and I go five yards. He goes, yeah, each club, like each iron going five yards further. Yes. I go, okay, so here's the thing. By the way, a scratch golfer jumps all of this . This guy is not a scratch, obviously judging from his assessment. Um, so I, I told him, I go, listen, let's say you're a scratch golfer, which he's not. I go, let's say it. I go, so that's 40 full swings and a round of golf to shoot 72. So he typically 70 shoot 72, 40 full swings. In those 40 full swings. Let's say you are five yards longer, each swing five yards longer and a miss five yards longer and a make five yards longer, 40 full swings, 200. I go. So by not taking , uh, by not getting those clubs, you are electing to play a course that is 200 yards longer on tour, a 200 yard par three typically for the week plays over par with the best players in the world. So you are playing a longer golf course on what would be deemed a and from 200 yards. Your average PGA tour player hits the green less than 50% of the time. Really ? So you are in a game about 48, 40 9%, right? So , uh, just under , uh, best players in the world, this guy is not. So he is electing to play a 19th hole and not the good ones, not the ones that are over at my bar. He's electing to play this, this ma this mythical 200 yard par three that he didn't know was in his , uh, that he was electing to play a magical
Speaker 5:Hole that just
Speaker 3:Showed up, right? That just showed up as he tells me that he would like to shoot lower. If you'd like to shoot lower, then you need to play the course shorter. Uh, in other words, everybody goes, well, yeah. So they go, well, you know, you know, this is like my pet peeve.
Speaker 2:They know everything <crosstalk> .
Speaker 3:They , they're like, well, you know, when I swing too fast , uh, you know, and I'm sitting there going too fast. I've got you on flight scope right here. You just swung your driver 87 miles an hour. At what point are you gonna get fast <laugh> ? I go, you're not, you're not fast, dude.
Speaker 2:You know , bro, you skyrocket that ball, that ball goes like one 90 at your driver, like you're not,
Speaker 3:Right ? See , 'cause if going slow made you better at golf, then the best players in the world would swing at the slowest. But they got Cameron champ swinging 130, and I got this guy swinging 87 miles an hour telling me, yeah, every time I get fast, it gets bad. I go, when are you gonna get fast? Like, this is not fast. I , you know, you look like you were on pause. So everybody goes, well, you know, when I swing fast , you know, the ball gets more crooked. And I , I said, you know, here's an interesting thing. Everyone, including Rory McElroy will probably take the most penalty shots in a year with his driver. And there is no guarantee that you will hit every fairway at the distance you are. So you might as well hit it further because if you hit it further with actually the same amount of dispersion, you are already better at golf. And by the way, you're , you seem to think like everyone that swings slower doesn't hit it crooked, and they hit their driver crooked too . But when your driver's crooked that day, you could hit a three wood , you could hit an iron and you could put yours out with theirs, with less club. And here's the other thing is you guys could be at the same distance because you backed off your driver just for today have the same distance in the hole , but you're still longer than they are. 'cause your two clubs shorter than they are . So at one 50, you're hitting nine iron and they're hitting a six or a seven who hits more greens? You don't get closer to the green at the amateur level. You don't get closer to the green to necessarily , uh, decrease your proximity to the hole , which will happen. You get closer to the green, so you can't possibly it up and miss
Speaker 2:Yeah , you can't miss a shot. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Like , like , so even on a shot, you're disgusted with, maybe you still hit the green, you
Speaker 2:Can still save it and you still get it next to the hole,
Speaker 3:Right? So it's a , it's a bold assumption. This is why I also think no amateur in the world should ever lay up on a par five. The re the real reason they lay up to a full wedge is because they don't know how to hit a 60 or , uh, uh, a 40 or a 50 yard shot. That's really why , oh , I like to lay up to my full wedge. All right , good. What , well , what yard is that? Yeah. Yeah, exact never, never, like any amateurs listening don't ever
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 3:The , the gay you are , you are accept , you are willingly adding yards back to the card . You were like, no , no , I'm good. Uh, you know , go ahead, tax some more yards on that. And then wondering why your handicap doesn't you lower . Here's why you should never lay up. So it's like, all right , so what's your favorite distance? You know, if people tell me a hundred, a hundred, 520, whatever , uh, you know, my, my pitching wedge or my gap, we , it goes one 20 . So I like to lay up to that. It's my fair club. Alright , cool. So in 2000 when Tiger played the best , uh, golf statistically that's ever been kept, we didn't have a lot of statistics with Nicholas or Hogan, unfortunately. So when we did on Tiger, so in 2000 from 120 yards, tiger missed the green won out every five times. So the greatest player playing the best he ever played, missed the green, won out every five times. Why the hell are you laying back to 120 yards willingly? How many times are you going to miss the green with your quote unquote favorite distance and favorite club? Really? It's actually not that. It's their , uh, they're demonstrating their lack of skill from different yardages. In other words, even if you can't reach the green, statistically getting closer to the green should be a lower score. It is on the PGA tour , um, from 30 yards off the green to 70 yards, so 30 yards, they'll get up , uh, they'll average 2.3 shots from 70 yards. They'll average 2.7 shots. So closer means lower , um, except at the club level, because they don't know how to hit those shots. They don't want to tell you they don't know how to hit those shots, and
Speaker 6:They don't wanna learn how to hit those shots either.
Speaker 3:They don't wanna learn how to hit those shots. That's , yeah . And , and so here's the other thing. It's like, well, Jake, who caress, I , I'm just gonna lay up , that's fine. But the problem is that you think you're gonna avoid those distances because you've elected to lay up . What about on punch shots ? Like, I'm sorry that , you know, this is a 19 handicap, you're talking , I'm sorry. Do you never hit it in the trees ? Well, yeah, obviously I hit it in the tree sometimes. Okay, so when you punch out up near the green, because that's all that's available to you, you now have a 30 yard shot . So why did you think you were gonna avoid that? Just because your strategy on fives is to lay up. You should never lay up if there better be like out of bounds left and right , um, for you to ever, or, or something that is a force carry in front that would make you, you know, you cannot, and by the way, amateurs don't know how far they carry the ball, but they cannot carry that. So thus they would have to lay short of that. But the strategy should always be this, it should be to subtract the most distance on any given hole on any given shot, because that's statistically over the macro view. Okay? Everybody goes, well, I did that and then I hit it out bounds. Yeah , yeah , you can do that. You can hit it out of bounds. It , it , it's totally in the realm of possibilities. I go, if I gave you a small bucket, would you have hit 'em all out bounds? No, you could have mishit the out of some of 'em right down the middle of the fairway too. Couldn't you have ? Yep . Okay, so I'm talking, I'm not talking one outcome to one outcome. I'm talking a macro view of your game, right? So given enough opportunities, given a hundred times of doing it, it is absolutely statistically the play in order to produce the lowest shots. And your handicap is an amalgamation over time, not over one round, right? And, and so the , my, one of my pet peeves is people that tell me I have great course management skills and I , uh, and them telling me this, and I go, interesting. I go, okay, so , uh, do you think, do you try to hit it down the middle of the fairway? And they go, yeah. And I go, that's not a good course, man . That's not good course management. I go, do you try to hit it at the middle of the green? They go, yeah. I go, that's not really good course management. Um, and then, you know, and then you got the other guy who's, you know, aiming right at the pin . And I'd tell you that's not very good course management. So there , there's these systems we use decade with our kids and our tour players. There's a system out there that mathematically shows you the way , way to play. It's not that hard to learn. And the funniest thing is the people that don't take the time to learn it. I always say, you know, the reason the buildings are so big and bright in Vegas is because of people that didn't, that refused to learn the odds in which the game that they were playing. So they make all their money off of you and your buddy in the NASA every week who maybe knows this but won't say it and has a much whole lower handicap. Uh, they actually have a fundamental understanding of what the game is actually asking them to do. And that's why you can never beat 'em .
Speaker 2:Is that about course management <laugh> ?
Speaker 3:It is .
Speaker 2:And not hitting short on purpose. So the guy never bought the clubs. He still never bought the clubs. After you talk
Speaker 3:<laugh>, well talk , I
Speaker 2:Bet he did. After that, you're like, all right , I'll go buy the clubs, you know, listen, tight, wide , go buy the clubs.
Speaker 3:<laugh> , right? Most places throw the fitting in for free. And I'm sorry, I don't care if it's three yards or five yards, it's three yards or five yards each swing. And that over time do ads up so fast and around
Speaker 2:That's like free . You're gonna, you have to reduce your , your handicapped out . I mean, seriously, five yards a lot.
Speaker 3:So people are very amazed with our junior programming, in our case in point, a fundamental misunderstanding of actually what produces results. I had a , uh, father come up to me , uh, this was this past summer, and his and his son is very good, and I don't want, you know, the names will be changed to protect the innocent. I don't wanna embarrass his father because this is what , how a lot of people think. Um, so he goes, yeah, he is really struggling with his irons. Can you take a look at 'em ? And I'm like, well, I always take a look at 'em . I go, but yeah, I , I go, I go, he played in a tournament, he struggles . I , I go, I'll talk to him about it. How about that? He goes, yeah. And I go, by the way , uh, you know, this is a junior golfer, right? I go, what irons? And he goes, well, like his four iron . And I go, I go, okay. I, I go, I go, how about this? I go, how about I just have him hit more drivers today? And he goes, he goes, well , you're not gonna look at his four iron . I go, I go, there's two scenarios here I go, so your scenario is that I go look at his swing and I help him with his for iron , which he might show some incremental improvement. And maybe he starts , he might
Speaker 2:One time around, right?
Speaker 3:Right. So , um, so I go, so maybe I help him with his for iron , right? And it's a young kid, right? Li little at 12 years old, 13, I go, so maybe I help him with his forearm and he gets a little bit better with his forearm. I go, how many forearms does he have in around ? Now you said it perfectly because if this kid was older, it would only be once, twice around, right? So the funniest thing is the dad was kind of ready for me there, and he is just like, well, see, that's my point. He, he, he hits his four iron a lot, a lot more than other kids. So that's why we got work on it. And I go, so if I fix his four iron or his five iron or his three iron or something like that, and he hits them better, I go, he'll still lose to the kid who has wedge. He'll still lose. I go, so what he really needs to do, and what's not gonna happen immediately, but we'll , uh, but I promise you will happen over time, is he needs to keep pounding drivers getting faster, hitting it further. So he has wedge too . So I always tell parents this , uh, because we only work with driver wedge and putter, that's it. I don't care about six irons. I really don't. Um, I, I tell 'em , if you know how to start the hole and you know how to finish the hole , you'll figure out the rest in between. And those are the kids that hold trophies. So we can fix your four iron, but you still won't win.
Speaker 2:It's like, it's almost like, but it's all the things you've learned through your career. And then it's like also working with kids, it's like all the same stuff, you know what I mean? Right . It's just you're older, I mean, or you're younger than they, than the , than the person. Like ,
Speaker 3:And , and by the, by the way, guess what? Dad's, because I don't work with dad, so guess what his theory is, is that every time faster , he's talk about that 25 handicap, right ? Faster . He a 25 handicap. Yeah . Faster. He gets more crooked. So he thinks his son should operate with the handbrake on. So ultimately it's like he's a 20 handicap, and by God, my son's gonna be a 20 handicap because that's how we think and that's how we play. And you swing too fast whenever the shot goes wrong and all that kind of stuff. I'm always trying to break the circle. So that's dad's belief, right? But I'm trying to break the circle and start something new in that family where it's kind of what happened in my own, no one in my family played golf. So if you wanna know about someone that wasted their time or that truly went with a lot of the gospel beliefs that still circulate in the game, it would've been me because I didn't have anyone guiding me. But , uh, it's always fun to work with the families that like have four or five generations of scratch players and stuff like that, because they don't say, they don't say, like, like, like that father, right? Oh , he, you know, if he could really start hitting his for iron , if he could hit his for iron , what, like <laugh> , like what is that? What's that gonna
Speaker 2:Four iron ,
Speaker 3:Right? So, so here's the , here's the interesting thing, right?
Speaker 2:Um,
Speaker 3:If you hit one more green in regulation, you average one and a half , you have the potential to average one and a half shots less per round. If you make one more putt per round, that's, this is really easy math for me. You average one less shot per round, and by the way, you gotta make that putt every single time. Okay ? So if you make one more putt, one shot less, you gotta do it every round. But if you hit one more green, potentially one and a half shots less, it's more important to hit the green. How am I gonna get these kids to get more green? Very easy. They need to have shorter clubs in not four . Oh ,
Speaker 2:Like the one thing I'm trying to do with my son who's 10 and like, yeah , he, like , he played baseball, but like now all he wants to do is play golf, which is, and I'm not pushing it good , right ? I wasn't like, oh , you need to play golf. Like, he just wants to play it. But like, I just tell him like, don't listen to papa. That's my dad. 'cause he's what the he's talking about. And like, I got an instructor, I got an instructor who works with juniors who I know is really good, and I'm like, excellent. You listen to whatever he says, you do exactly what he tells you. I go, if you and I go play, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. We're gonna go play on fun. And that's it. Because I know the opposite of that. Because if you listen to, you know, if you , I , I'm not, I mean, I'm a 15, right? So I'm like, and I'm , I've been going down, I was a 25 last year and I'm a 15. I'm trying to go down like single digits in this year, but I've got instruction. So it's like all that crap in your head about what you think, you know, you don't know. So like, I would rather start him young, get the instruction that I know will help him be a better player. If he wants to do that and he doesn't wanna do it, that's fine too. I don't care. But I mean, I'm gonna try to give him the opportunity to like at least achieve that goal. And if, I mean , he loves it. So I think it's ,
Speaker 3:It's the only player, the the only player that you've gotten to your level is yourself. Yeah. And then what, what I would challenge people with is it might be despite your beliefs , uh, being a coach means tearing down walls and presenting opportunities. There's a lot of people watching this or listening to this that have these stone cold beliefs. And because of these beliefs, they're very limiting. And unfortunately , uh, they're the obstacle in the way of their own improvement because they believe that this is the way that they , it should be done. And as a coach, I always believe in another way. So , um, a lot of the times, again, people are, we're, we're, you know, we're, we're surrounded by knowledge at, from every source, but, but we kind of thirst for wisdom. I, I get a lot of people that are quote unquote educated on the topic of a golf swing, but they're so narrow-minded that , uh, the funniest thing is what they're trying to do. They can't one do themselves. So I find myself a lot of time going, yeah, yeah, no, totally makes sense and that would be good for this player, but not you. So , um, you have to as an instructor to understand patterns and you have to recognize it's pattern recognition. If your client can't do it, more than likely, not only were their handicapped not go down, but they might actually run the risk of getting physically injured as well. So , um, I'm sorry if somebody's just like showing you Rory McElroy or, or Justin wrote , that's a really easy lesson to give by the way. Just put you next to Rory and say, he's good. You're not. Do what he does. I'm like, well, yeah, you know, I'm a Chicago kid. I guess you could have gave me a basketball and said, Hey, go play like Michael Jordan'll be back in 45 minutes. I mean, it's, that's a lesson, man. The funniest thing is, the problem with the lesson is it didn't include you and he referenced Roy McElroy and he ain't here either, you know? So that's true. An instructor has a great instructor has to tear down these gospel limiting beliefs, tear down these walls, or at very , at the very least, present a door where it's like, yep , that's true and that player can do it, but this player, but that's not you and this is what you can do. And by the way, we can find great examples of that as well .
Speaker 2:No , it's really cool. So where can people find you?
Speaker 3:So the best way to reach me is , uh, obviously my social media channels is at Jake the Goff . But , uh, you know, I try to have all those direct , uh, you know, you get so many dms and all that stuff. And then I, I have, I have somebody that helps me with those, so it's always directing 'em towards my website. So the best way to reach me is jake therm.com .
Speaker 2:And then what do you, on your website, what do you offer to ,
Speaker 3:So we, we do that, that's the best thing. So if you click on instruction , um, you'll get lots of different options there. And again, if you can't see me physically in person, there's some online instruction there. And there is , uh, there's, in-person instruction, there's group instruction, there's team , uh, prac , uh, building the USA junior national team, which I'm the Midwest director of. That's what I told you. My whole goal was to have one of the best junior programs in the, in Chicagoland area or Midwest. So , uh, we have a lot of different teams at a lot of different locations, and anytime I'm in town, I, I actively work in my own programming. So , um, so if I'm not out on the PGA tour, I am usually, I, I do have adult clients that I give private lessons to . There's no question about that. Um, but I am usually actively working in my own programs, especially with competitive up and coming juniors. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I really appreciate you being on the show today . Had a lot of fun, man. I know we went along , but like we dorked out for like 30 minutes on our K games and <crosstalk> <laugh> , most people don't talk about that, like ever. And I'm like, wait, what? Like, that's , I don't know , I keep out on that stuff too. But , um, I really appreciate you being on the show today, and you guys have to check out Jake's stuff. It's really cool. Um, and obviously you guys know he knows what he's talking about. Um, but thank you again and I will see you guys in the next episode.
Speaker 7:Thanks for listening to another episode of Behind the Golf Brand podcast. You're gonna beat me and golf stay connected on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you win. Stay out of the beach and see you on the green.