Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore

#88 - Hackmotion: Reinholds Pirags (CCO)

September 07, 2022 Paul Liberatore Season 3 Episode 88
Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore
#88 - Hackmotion: Reinholds Pirags (CCO)
Show Notes Transcript

We made it to Episode 88 of the Behind the Golf Brand Podcast.  In this week's episode, I interview my good friend Reinholds Pirags the Chief Commercial Officer of Hackmotion. 

The Hackmotion  is the ultimate training tool to learn correct wrist mechanics for an improved ball flight. Precise data and feedback after every swing helps you to accelerate the learning process.  


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Let me show you how we do it in the pros.

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Yeah. Welcome to behind the golf brand podcast. I never missed with the seven nine a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf. My

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Just let me put the ball in a hole. This is behind the golf brand podcast with Paul liberatory.

Speaker 6:

What's up guys, Paul from golfer's authority. Welcome to the behind the golf brand podcast. We are on episode 88. Holy crap. 88. That was a year I was born. I wish just kidding. But today I had my friend Ryan hold's pers from hack motion. I've been talking, I've actually been working with hack motion for like three years. It's been a long time and I, I, haveve never like, got to be face to face with re holds before. So this is kind of cool. Cause I was like, oh my gosh, did you look like, but um, Taylor were talking about hack motion and kind of what they've been up to where they're going. This is a really cool tech device for golf. It's like super thanks, Paul. Um, I can't wait to, uh, share it with them. So welcome to the show.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Thanks for inviting.

Speaker 6:

So where are you located?

Speaker 7:

So we are based in Europe, in a small country called Lavia

Speaker 6:

Where's Lavias like

Speaker 7:

Baltic,

Speaker 6:

Right?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. It's uh, it's in the Baltics and the Northern Europe.

Speaker 6:

So like who touches you then? Like to

Speaker 7:

The south? So we actually three Baltic countries. So we are by the sea, uh, Estonia, uh, Lavia, Lithia, and opposite to see there's, uh, Sweden, uh, and, uh, Denmark. And then there's, uh, Finland and, uh,

Speaker 6:

You're like super close to Sweden, right? Like you're cause it's like, yeah, just across the water essentially.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. You can take a ferry there.

Speaker 6:

Like how far of a ferry ride is it to Sweden from where you're at?

Speaker 7:

Usually people take it overnight ferry. So, uh, they get in the port in the evening. I think then they,

Speaker 6:

Uh, like in Stockholm something.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, exactly. The Stockholm that's a popular route. Then you spend a day in Stockholm.

Speaker 6:

I love to live there. That'd be so much fun. Like, cause like everything's so close in Europe that you just can take a flight and you're there like in an hour or you just take a train and you get there couple hours, like

Speaker 7:

In you're a technically.

Speaker 6:

Yeah. Did you grow up in Lavia?

Speaker 7:

Yes. Yes. So this is my home country.

Speaker 6:

Now are you a golf pro?

Speaker 7:

I'm not professional. I used to be a competitive amateur, not, not anymore. So I used to play as a, as a junior, uh, a lot. And uh, I was in that national team, so I got, uh, lot of, uh, great experience playing then, but uh, so don't

Speaker 6:

Have, so you, so you were good, like growing up, right? Like you, you,

Speaker 7:

Yeah, I really got, I think get, got this golf bug or how, how would you call it that? Uh, as a teenager, I just spent all my time, you know, on the, uh, summers on the golf course and uh, played, uh, you know, several rounds a day, just hitting 10 buckets a day and practicing and competing. And uh, I love that. Uh, I really love the aspect of, uh, that you can just work on your, on your own because you used to play tennis as well and a tennis. You always needed a partner and you needed to run the court. And it was, uh, either you were paying for a coach or for the court. And when, uh, it also got quite expensive, but golf, I could just, you know, uh, come in the morning and, and

Speaker 6:

I really thought about like that, like, you can just go play golf by yourself. Like it's the only sport you can just go play by yourself. You can go practice by yourself. Like you don't need anybody with you.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. I love that. Like you just perfect. The shot just hours, uh, you know, hitting balls and trying to get the shape that you want. And uh, then next day go competing well in tennis, you need, you know, like you have a tournament tomorrow, but, uh, so how you gonna get better? You, you gonna take a, you know, like, uh, rent a court and, uh, coach for several hours to try to work on your forehand hand that that wasn't really an option,

Speaker 6:

But you got pretty good then. Right? You gimme the national team. Like, what's that like?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. So we traveled, uh, some international tournaments in Europe, uh, went to the world teams, uh, championship in Australia. Uh, so, uh, so that was, uh, really cool. I, uh, Ricky F was, uh, playing in that, uh, that world championship as well. So I, uh, got to watch him. I quickly understood that he's better than me, so<laugh>, I,

Speaker 6:

Uh, you're like, oh crap, this is different.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Yeah. These are guys I'm up against. So

Speaker 6:

What countries were good in that? Like, you are

Speaker 7:

Actually very interesting tournament. Uh, us came second and Scotland won. So it was kind of this upset and Scotland had a really good team and the whole course was kind of this links type. Of course. So I think the Scottish team had a really, uh, like maybe even a bit of advantage. Uh, it was really windy. It was really fun to watch the shots that they're playing in, in those conditions. And I think they're

Speaker 6:

Totally used to that. Right. Super windy. It's a link course, like that is literally

Speaker 7:

Solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were hit hitting these low stingers and, and then using the Americans were just hitting these, uh, maybe high spin shots that uh weren't uh,

Speaker 6:

And they just go over to the right. Cuz the wind catches the ball. Yeah. So where was that in Australia?

Speaker 7:

Yeah, that was in Australia. That was a really, really nice tournament in Adelaide.

Speaker 6:

Oh, Adelaide. That's a long flight dude, Lavia to Australia. I couldn't imagine that flight. Yeah, that's probably just as far though, like the United States, like from Arizona to Australia. So when, when did you, like, when did that happen? Like what year was that?

Speaker 7:

I think that was 2008. Yeah.

Speaker 6:

So then were you in college at the time or

Speaker 7:

What were you? I was actually finishing, uh, high school then. Holy crap. And then, uh, uh, that was, uh, yeah, a nice way to finish.

Speaker 6:

So you graduated high school and then did you go to college?

Speaker 7:

Yeah, I went to college. I actually studied, uh, you know, economics and business and finance and, uh, I didn't have that much time for golf because I was, uh, really busy studying. And then, uh, later on I, uh, after graduating, I started playing more and I, uh, met Metis, uh, who who's the who's the PhD in electronics. And, uh, they were specifically looking, uh, for a team member, uh, for, uh, entering the golf market and, uh, building a sensor that can help, uh, professionals and also amateur players to basically learn their, uh, motion in, in this case golf. Uh, we also did, uh, baseball a bit and, uh, golf has been going really well. Uh, so we haven't that much focus on baseball to also have a product there with some major league teams also using it. So, uh, but, uh, we are focused on, uh, on, on golf at the moment and, uh, yeah, we're all Methodist and, uh, they needed the team member and I was looking for the next challenge. So we, uh, joined up.

Speaker 6:

So did you go to college in Lavia?

Speaker 7:

Yeah, it's actually a very good, uh, it's a Swedish, uh, founded, uh, college in, uh, uh, founded and funded. So, uh, Sweden, uh, wanted to help the region to develop. Uh, and then they made this really good, uh, business, uh, uh, and economics, uh, kind of, uh, it's a quite, uh, small school. It's not like a huge university and it was specifically focused on, on, on that. So all the studies were also in English, so, uh, uh, there was, yeah, yeah, everything goes in English then. Interesting.

Speaker 6:

So then how many languages do you speak? How, but you speak a bunch of languages?

Speaker 7:

No, unfortunately, like I I'm quite actually poor this. I studied German and French in school, but I'm, I'm, uh, quite terrible at that. And of course, Russian as well bit, but I'm quite as bad, bad at that as well. So I would say English and Latin and

Speaker 6:

English, like, right. I mean, that's like four languages right there.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Well, I can read the menu. So in a restaurant that

Speaker 6:

Helps the menu, it's like a bunch of symbols to me. I don't know, like upside down GS and whatever. I don't know. Um, when you're in college, you don't really playing golf at all, right? Like you started getting busy fond once

Speaker 7:

In a while in summer is more. And, uh, really, I was paying a lot of attention to my studies, so I knew if I wanna play golf. It's like, if you wanna play golf competitively at like scratch level or close, then you need to be really practicing a lot. So you don't have time for that. So I, I kind of, uh, took my, uh, studies as my priority.

Speaker 6:

That was your job. That was your main focus. You graduated from school. And is that your first job? Like who own, so hack motion? What is that a company owned by the company you went to work for? Or is that a company that was startup afterwards?

Speaker 7:

No, we, uh, it's the PhD with, uh, two other founders. Yeah. And I joined the, basically the founding team, uh, later on they initially actually tried, uh, some, um, they tried to make something for snowboarding and, uh, they built an full costume for snowboarder snowboarding, but the problem there was that nobody really who snowboarding wants to invest a lot in development of their skills, unlike golfers. Uh, so basically they got feedback that, Hey, golf is a really great sport where, uh, a lot of these technologies are working. So they thought like what's the free niche there. And that, uh, the risk is something that's really important as it controls the club face. And, uh, there's no really good tool that would be measuring what the risk is doing, what the club face is doing. And then, uh, they build a product and I joined, uh, the team on the sales and marketing side, uh, because of my, uh, let's say experience, uh, yeah. And understanding what are the needs and, uh, also helping of course to, uh, build a better product. Uh, so yeah, that's

Speaker 6:

So, so are there other products that are, that they are making still, like you said, there's a baseball product too, right. But they're not really.

Speaker 7:

Oh yeah. So we basically thought like what our other sports in baseball is, uh, using a lot of those similar tools like they're using TrackMan or Sodo, uh, things that also golf pros use. Uh, and we build a product, uh, for, uh, teams to use and, uh, coaches we're buying it, but we understood that. Let's say if we keep developing two products, we gonna be, uh, splitting a lot attention. So we are using the pro, like coaches are using the product, they are, uh, testing it, but we are not pushing really the, uh, sales a lot. And we are not marketing it that much because we really wanna focus mainly

Speaker 6:

Hyper focused.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. To get really bigger in the golf market, then, uh, get into the mainstream and then we'll, uh, grow the team, uh, for other sports as well.

Speaker 6:

So is the technology for the baseball similar in technology for the golf? Just for baseball?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Or actually different product. It's, it's, it's really similar because like the hardware, you can put it again on the, on your lead hand and the wrist, uh, what is the different is the software and what are those, what we call swing detection algorithms that it automatically detects when you're making a swing motion and captures the data. Because if you just, if you'd have to, every time press, you know, record button, you'd be, don't

Speaker 6:

Why I do

Speaker 7:

That. Yeah. Can do you just wanna swing and see the data? So you make a specific algorithms for golfer, for baseball. And of course the data that the player is interested is different for baseball and golf. So in say baseball, like there's different swing faults, like rollover, for instance. So you can measure exactly when the player started rotating, uh, and, uh, how much he rotated before impact while golf for, uh, a lot of, uh, coaches, really interested inflection extension, how much the player and the backswing is, you know, copping the wrist and how much he's Boeing it in the downswing. And then we can compare it to, you know, to our data and, and see, uh, how you compare. So the metrics are different, the software is different, but overall, the principle is you measure what the wrist is doing by placing sensors, both on the forearm and on the hand, on the Palm. And then, uh, it measures the, how, how the wrist is moving.

Speaker 6:

How long has hack motion been around? Like when did it start?

Speaker 7:

So it's been around for something like five years. Uh, but for initially it was, uh, you know, snowboard product and there was a product for shooting actually. And then I joined, uh, around four years ago. Oh, I see. Uh, when we entered,

Speaker 6:

I started talking to you pretty much, like right after we

Speaker 7:

Started. Yeah. So we were at the very beginning actually. Uh, so we were, we had just built a product and we reaching out to, uh, people who are interested to, you know, spread the, spread the word and, uh, see what we built.

Speaker 6:

Like initially when the hack motion first came out, that was about four years ago. Well, like what was the response was like, people like, whoa, what the heck?

Speaker 7:

So actually it was really surprising how positive the response immediately was and, uh, how much, like there were coaches like top coaches in the world, golf Dodge is 50 top 50. And, uh, uh, they were saying, okay, I'll make, this is great. This is exactly what, uh, we've been lacking. Like it's, uh, under research, uh, area, like, because the risk is super important as it controls the club face and basically club phase determines where the ball's flying. And, uh, there had been, uh, these, uh, more kinematic sequence focused, uh, sensors that measure how your whole body, uh, works. But a lot of coaches were saying they are too long to set up and, uh, they need something, uh, simple that can work in the background, like as this passive, uh, like a launch monitor, like everybody loves using TrackMan and, and similar, uh, tools because they just give, give you this, uh, this data it's easy to interpret and, uh, it doesn't affect your, you can hit the balls and not think about too much. So that was, uh, actually a lot of our inspiration. So, and, uh, yeah, the, the feedback was really good. And, uh, a lot of these top, uh, even, uh, tour professional coaches were just writing and, uh, inquiring about it. And, uh, that was really actually great to see that, uh, we built something that's really interesting and valuable for the top players and top coaches, and they just were ready to, you know, help us also spread the word. And, uh, we didn't have to, you know, uh, like some companies would have to try to get like huge endorsements, uh, of, of some tour players and we just got, or, or coaches, but we just got it basically for free this publicity and, uh, that, that really helped us to grow initially.

Speaker 6:

So essentially like the coaches were like, oh, this is cool. Like, this is something that's not out there. Yeah.

Speaker 7:

This is like,

Speaker 6:

We can use this. This is, is a tool we can use. Like, that is not,

Speaker 7:

You know, yeah. You can, because the risk you can't like when you make a video, you can't see exactly how it moves. So there are all kind of these nuances, uh, and differences between players. And they were saying like, okay, like, I've been trying to teach this four years and this tool shows exactly what's happening. And it has this audio signal that provides, uh, you know, feedback when you're doing the thing that, uh, the coach or you want to do. And, uh, let's say you, you're two cup at the top and you just say, okay, I wanna be flatter. So you just put input the, the range that you wanna be in, and it'll provide you instant feedback on whether, when you get it right, and you can adjust it, uh, and, uh, like different coaches have slightly different preferences so they can, uh, adjust those. Uh, and, and, uh, also different players, like on tour also hit, uh, with a bit different release types. So that was also really interesting to learn so much. We, we try to, uh, create a lot of educational content by top coaches like Scott Ks from Canada, or a great tour coach and, uh, a great educator of other coaches has created really nice, uh, uh, series of webinars explaining how are the different release types, uh, among players and, and, and which ones you should be trying to use when,

Speaker 6:

So if I was a golfer, not a coach, right. And I buy the hack motion, like how, like, how does it work? Like, like, I'm, I'm just a lay person, right? Like, what does the theory and how does it work and why does it matter?

Speaker 7:

Okay. So for, uh, actually for a, like an average, typical golfer, we've made a special mode, which we call the club face control mode. So the sensor measures what your lead risk is doing and what it does is opens and closes the club face. So a typical, uh, golfer would struggle with, uh, club face control, he's opening and closing it too much during a swing. So it's hard to be consistent and it's hard to hit the same, uh, shot, shape, or direction every

Speaker 6:

Single time. Right? Yeah,

Speaker 7:

Exactly. While professionals are actually, most of them, uh, with some exceptions are using, uh, much like narrower range of those wrist tangle movements and the certain patterns, which they control what we call flex extension, which the typical terms are Boeing and cupping of the wrist. It's basically opening and closing the club face. So they open and close the club face less. So they hit it straighter.

Speaker 6:

But guys like me, don't, we're all over the place, right? Yeah.

Speaker 7:

Who

Speaker 6:

Knows like one shot you can have really good. The next shot could be complete crap. And it's just because you could have,

Speaker 7:

Yeah. The club face is all over the place. Just very hard to be consistent. And what we do then is this clubface control mode is we tell you, okay, you have to be this range in the back swing. Like, don't change your back swing, uh, club face, uh, opening, closing, great too much. And in Downing, what you do is you need to close the club face and it's better to do it. Did

Speaker 6:

It teach you how to do that? Like, does it show you like, or does it make a noise? Like, eh, okay. You went too far or are you looking at a, like, what are you looking at an iPad? Or like, what are you doing? Like if I was at a range or I was in my house, like, how would, how would I do that?

Speaker 7:

So we have a app for Android and, uh, iOS, and, uh, you basically, uh, take a swing and it provides you whether you are inside or outside the range. And then it, uh, we actually, a new feature that we've implemented is it provides you a tip, uh, what you need to change. And there's certain drill that you can do most popular. One is actually the motorcycle drill. Uh, so it, it, it, if you imagine you put your, uh, uh, hand on a thro, uh, of you do like this, uh, adding gas. Yeah.

Speaker 6:

Like that thing.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they go the wrist at the top and you close the club face. And that's really helpful for guys who are struggling with slice, which is basically, uh, caused by, you know, open club face coming out in and adding side spin. So you close the club face earlier, so you don't have to close it at the last second. So you gain, uh, uh, consistency and also better, uh, you know, uh,

Speaker 6:

So do you have to take like a full swing for it to show you, like what just happened or is it like in real time? Or like, if I'm just sitting here with my wrist, you'll see it moving like

Speaker 7:

Exactly. It says real time. It, it goes real time. Data, uh, provides real time data. And, uh, this audio feedback also is real time and it also provides posts, swing feedback. So it's both you see through. So if

Speaker 6:

I had the iPad in front of me on a stand, right. And I'm like doing my, just my motion right. Where my motion is. Yeah. And, and going to the back, swinging, I can see on the monitor on the iPad, like what my wrist is doing. Right. And I can say, oh, crap. I'm way open. Oh, okay. And I should say, okay. So, so you can get instant feedback and be like, okay, I need actually close it a little bit and kind. So you start getting the muscle memory of like, that's where it should be. Not where I'm at.

Speaker 7:

Mm-hmm<affirmative> exactly. So that that's really helpful because a lot of, uh, players, uh, don't understand, you

Speaker 6:

Don't have a idea,

Speaker 7:

Have

Speaker 6:

No idea.

Speaker 7:

This feels good to me when I'm doing it. That they're like way open. And obviously they

Speaker 6:

Think, they think their feet, their feet are wrong or they think like they're not set up at a dress and it could be like, everything's fine. It just like, you're all over the place with your wrists. Or you're not holding the club ride or something.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6:

So, okay. So like I'm in, I'm in swing and I can watch in real time, it will show you, like, does it say like, oh, you need to be at a certain, like, is it a color coding system? Or is it numbers? Like what it show people?

Speaker 7:

It's, it's, again, both it both shows numbers and we color code them. Green is good. You're in the range. And then, you know, yellow is your bit out of range and red, you are like quite a lot of range. So, and then it, it gives you like a range. Let's say it, we give like 15 degree range and you have to, if you wanna hit, like what we see average tour players are doing with their risks in the back swing, not changing that risk extension too much. Then we just say, okay, here's the 15 degree range. Try to get into it, uh, get in the range. And if you are out, then it'll like, give you a

Speaker 6:

Practice, like going from a address, like, you know, full address to like back swinging and just keep on seeing like, okay, like, is there, is there a way of seeing that in real? I mean, it sounds like you can say in real time, obviously. Yeah. But like, almost like just practice that movement and be like, oh no. Oh no. Oh, Nope. Keep on doing over and over and over again. And like, oh, that's where supposed to be at. Okay. Now I see it. And then you start practicing just that motion. Is that

Speaker 7:

Exactly? It's like, I, I, myself actually struggle with that. I'm like opening, uh, my, uh, club face way too much. And then, uh, I, I, I used to, and now I'm actually working really much, uh, more on my swing. And then, uh, it's really great when it provides the feedback. Like, you hear it when there's this tune playing, that means that you're in a correct range. So you sometimes don't even have to watch the numbers. You just input those numbers and it'll,

Speaker 6:

They'll, they'll make a noise, like go, woo.

Speaker 7:

Exactly. It's like, when you're doing it right. And then it stops playing it when you're doing it wrong,

Speaker 6:

Because that's the problem. Like for guys like me, oh, a lot, you know, the, I have so much trouble my back swing right now. It's like ridiculous. Like, because I was self taught and then now I'm changing my swing to like actually rotate my body and not come over the top. And so it's kind of like, I don't know, like how far do I go over, you know, and all these little, like, it's a completely new swing and it's like, not knowing mm-hmm<affirmative> where and what and how. Yeah.

Speaker 7:

Uh, tiger has actually a great video on field versus real. Like he had these series my game. So he talks in one of those like about field versus real. And what you feel you're doing is not what you're actually doing. And it's just what you're used to be doing. So you feel the,

Speaker 6:

So that's so true to, because like, I'll record my, like, I'll, I'll go play golf and I'll record the whole game. Right. And I'll watch and like, I'll have a good shot. And then I look back at that video and I'm like, holy crap. Like that was my old swing. My elbow stood, you know, my elbows up in the air. I'm like, that was a horror shot. I just got lucky. Or, you know, it's like, it's not what you think you're doing, you

Speaker 7:

Know? Exactly. It's impossible really to, you know, get a feel for what you are actually doing or it's just what you used to be doing.

Speaker 6:

Yeah. And unless someone's there and be like, oh, you looked your arm up. It's like, did I? Cause I don't feel like I did. You know, or I didn't really. Yeah. So it's kind of cool because I mean, like I have a training aid that I bought, I don't know, like a couple months ago. It's really basic. It's kind of neat though. It has like, essentially it's like two lasers, right? So like there's a laser pointing down the club face and there's a laser going up the club mm-hmm<affirmative>, uh, shaft. And you can kind of see like what your plane is. Right. Like, you know, but like, but what you're saying is like, you can actually see if you're more, if what's, what's going through your wrist and if you're like opening it or closing it or twisting it. And you know, now I guess my question is, does grip have a lot to do with this issue? Like the way you grip the club

Speaker 7:

Is there? It does. Uh, what we do is, uh, like a lot of players, uh, ask us is, is there one perfect number? And it's not, it depends on your grip. So guys with weaker grips, like Jordan speed will not naturally have, you know, uh, more flat wrist or bold wrist at the top while guys with stronger grips will, uh, have a bit more copy. So we adjust it in the automatically, but in general you need a solid grip and it actually shows you if you are, you know, too weak, uh, then your numbers will be very low. It's it's gonna be very flat.

Speaker 6:

Well, what, what about like everyone grips the club differently, right? Like you have the Vaden grip and you have like the baseball grip and all that crap like that. Yeah. Like, is there a specific type of gripping the club that is better than others? Or does it matter? Because once you set up the software and once it kind of correlates with everything, how you grip the club, now it's just measuring what your risks are doing. Mm-hmm

Speaker 7:

<affirmative> so we, we try not to cuz going too much and do the grip because it's quite individual. So we say more what, okay, you gripped it. We say that's good. Like, and then we go from there seeing what you're doing. But if you see that your numbers are, let's say what, like very extreme then often it is that you're actually gripping it wrong. So that's also something you can adjust and you can look at what are the ranges, typical for tour players as well. Like there usually a bit copped at address.

Speaker 6:

Does it matter what kind of grips you have? Like, is there, have you seen any kind of data or, you know, like if it's an oversized grip versus like a regular grip, like, does that any that take into account with the risk?

Speaker 7:

Uh, we've actually seen some interesting date, like Bryce on Shambo for instance. Uh he's

Speaker 6:

Yeah. He has those jumbo max. So like they're huge.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. They're

Speaker 6:

Full grips by the way. They're very comfortable,

Speaker 7:

But he has, uh, specific, uh, you know, release, which is probably influenced by the fact that he has those, uh, grips.

Speaker 6:

Essentially somebody can get the hack motion. Right. You put it on what probably calibrates right to your wrist and the way it's set up. And then at that point you can start going through. Is it like, is there drills or is it just like data? Like what, what does the software show you?

Speaker 7:

So the software shows, again, both it shows first the data like, okay, are you inside or outside range? Let's say you are outside range because you are, uh, having too much extension at the top. And then it, uh, gives drill. Like it says, Hey, here's a great deal by coach Tyler Farrow. Uh, so he's, uh, made the video for you with three different types of drills that you can use and the ranges. And he shows those drills and then you can apply them and, and work, like take a swing with hack motion, see the numbers usually are going down. Uh, you're getting closer to the range. And then you can just try to say, get five shots. Like

Speaker 6:

You don't even need a ball. Right. You can just be doing the motion and just swing the club or,

Speaker 7:

Or doesn't matter, you, you need some impact vibration, so you need to hit something. So a turf usually like if you just swing the club, you're not gonna, it needs to detect what is the impact. Right. So, uh, based on the swing detection algorithm we have,

Speaker 6:

But can I take this to the range and hit balls with it? Yeah. Yeah. And not have a, it's not gonna like damage the hack motion, but dur

Speaker 7:

I know it's, it's good. Like baseball coaches is actually where, uh, asking about this a lot because they get hit with the, the balls, a

Speaker 6:

Balls going like a hundred miles an hour.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. But it's, it's really durable. Hasn't had any problems.

Speaker 6:

Well, that's the one thing that laser thing I was telling you about, like it, it's cool to show you that, like, they make sure you're lined up whatever, but you can never hit a ball with it. Thing's gonna fly right off of it. Or, you know what I'm saying? So like it's not a hundred percent useful. Um, it's only just for seeing like your, your motion. If somebody like me got the hack motion, I set it up. I watched the videos, right. Or on the iPad or whatever the, you know, on some drills to do. And then I can just do those drills. And, but I can also practice on my own once I start learning, like where my wrist should be and I can just hit the ball and become a better player.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. So you can do the drills. Some players just like working on the consistency. They're trying to get every time in the same, uh, range. Some like to fix, uh, certain swing issues. You can work on putting as well or short game. So, uh, different type of shots. We have, uh, different tour player sample data that you can use to learn. So what, what exactly are the tour players doing? For instance, when they're hitting a finesse shot or a, uh, or a bunker shot or a, just a typical, uh, pitch shot. So that's really great as

Speaker 6:

Well. So I'm look at the data right now on your site. So like it shows you the wrist angle, right. Or, you know, a different position. So like, you know, at a dress or at the top of your swing and an after impact, like obviously your wrist is moving throughout the entire thing. It just should be within a range. Essentially. You're helping show people like your wrist should be here in all these different stages of your swing, right? Yeah. Within this range, whatever that might be, right. Like, I don't know, zero to 10 or something. And then it's like, okay, you're outside that range on your back swing or you're outside that range on your follow outside that range and address like, so you can literally break down what your wrist angles are at throughout the entire swing. Okay. Let ask this question to you then, like how important is wrist angle mean? There's a million things to worry about in golf?

Speaker 7:

Well, it's

Speaker 6:

Why is wrist angle so important?

Speaker 7:

Well, it's, it's really the cop determines like more than 80% of where the ball direction. So if you don't control the cup face, you have to. Oh really? Yeah. So it's, if you look, that's actually one of the big insights from, uh, launch monitors, uh, like TrackMan previously, uh, uh, players thought that path is, uh, maybe more determining, uh, for the, uh, the ball direction. It's actually the face. So the best players are better at controlling the face. And we see that consistently, like if you put it on a tip Ture, you know, those wrist angles are all over the place and they're not controlling it.

Speaker 6:

I cannot wait to a mine arm are, are probably totally bad.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, when you look at the professionals, they have this really nice, like completely different pattern. Uh, so if you learn that, then you're gonna have so much less, you know, variables in your swing that you don't have to adjust, uh, to, and it's gonna be just so much easier to be consistent. And then you can also combine hitting with power. You know, like every time a typical guy, uh, tries to, uh, add, you know, additional power, he just like cups the wrist super much opens. And then he tries to time it perfectly while those, uh, professionals, they just like can maintain those tangles, control the coffees, and then they can add power and keep it, uh, keep the direction straight.

Speaker 6:

So what does the hack motion cost?

Speaker 7:

So it's the player, version's 395 and then the pro version, which contains additional data and, uh,

Speaker 6:

Look for coaches, right?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. It's more for coaches, but also a lot of actually those amateurs, which are super much into data, it costs 965 and we give a chance to update it, upgrade from one to the other. So a lot of our users actually, they initially buy the player version and they like the date so much, so they, okay. I want more data. I want more, uh, and they upgrade then.

Speaker 6:

Um, but when you buy that hack motion, like the whatever version it is, so you get the hack motion device, right. It's a physical device you put on your wrist and then also you probably get the, an access to the software, whatever, whatever model you have, correct. Yeah. Is it subscription based software or is it not? Yeah,

Speaker 7:

We don't charge any additional subscription so you can use it on your own. Uh, you can use it as, as much as you want. You can also use it, uh, like with, with your buddies.

Speaker 6:

That's cool. I think it's kind of cheesy when like a company makes you spend a bunch of money on a electronic product, and then they put you on subscription. On top of it. It's like, bro, I just spent$500 or a thousand dollars. Now you pay me pay a hundred dollars a year. Cause my like seriously, like this, that's like, that's how you people off. So then the next time when they have a choice, they're not gonna buy your product. I'll just tell you that, cuz I'll be like, I'll go with that guy who didn't charge me subscription. You know, I'm not gonna name names, but you always know who you are.<laugh> I think it's dance annoying. Um, so have you used it like, has it helped your game?

Speaker 7:

Yeah, actually I, I didn't know that, uh, I, I was myself that much extended and I really learned a lot from those coaches who are using it and who are, uh, creating those education materials and understanding, you know, my, my swing much better. And that has definitely helped me like, uh, I, I was as a junior actually I was quite risky and I was always, uh, not sure why I'm so inconsistent sometimes. And my shots are so spiny. Like I was, uh, because I had quite a lot of extension and this coming very steep so I could time it well, but it, it was, uh, I, I, I didn't have the consistency. I could one day shoot a grade score in the next, uh, day. I wouldn't have the timing and I wouldn't do it. And, uh, while those are really good guys, they're just so much more consistent because they have less, you know, variables to, uh, try to time. So it has tremendously helped actually.

Speaker 6:

Um, if I, you know, as a, as a average player, let's call it mm-hmm<affirmative>, I mean, it sounds like this is something that, I mean, I can't wait, they're sending me one. So I'm excited to try it out. I mean, we, we were an article on a long time ago, but now they got a whole new update and I'm like, okay, let's do some cool stuff, but to see just exactly what is wrong with my, I, I have a feeling like after learning from you and then going to the website and seeing all like the, the graphics and all the, um, video you guys have, like, it's crazy to see like how much your risk can really change the trajectory of the ball. Like a lot, you know, like it's a difference between like a slice and hitting it straight, essentially it, and I, I don't know, this is kind blows my mind to see that.

Speaker 7:

Yeah.

Speaker 6:

If you, if you, um, if you were a high handicap golfer, a mid, mid handicap golfer, let's call it. Like, what would you recommend to these players when, in regards to the hack motion?

Speaker 7:

Well, I would recommend, uh, really to work on the club face control that I spoke about. That's like number one issue, uh, usually that the players open or close the face too much. And then it's hard to hit those shots straight. Like if you are not able to be a single digit handicap, most likely then your consistency is, is key. And you're most of you are, uh, slicing the ball. So, uh, that usually results from an open club phase out to in path, uh, trying to, you know, uh, uh, time it perfectly, which, uh, rarely happens. So if you get, get that, uh, face more square, your path is gonna improve and you're gonna, you know, hopefully get to single digits. And then working on the short game,

Speaker 6:

Have you, has any of your customers like come back to you and say, holy crap, this thing has like changed my game.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, we it's, it's uh, we have special, uh, work chat, like channel where we provide the customer feedback. So we have a lot of those, like it's like, oh my God, I didn't know how copti was getting. And like, I have been slicing for 30 years and now I fixed it. Uh, thanks guys. Like, uh, so a lot of great feedback there.

Speaker 6:

That's cool. I mean, that's the thing, right? Like, you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. Like, I didn't know. I know any of this, you know, like,

Speaker 7:

Yeah, you talk about education, it helps you, like, it's a learning experience. Like you just understand same as when you get a TrackMan or a launch monitor. You just didn't know those numbers at all. Or you didn't know your swing card. Yeah.

Speaker 6:

But you don't even know like what causes those numbers. Like, that's the thing too. Like, you know, there's a big learning curve. Like, oh, I got TrackMan or rep Soto or whatever, but like, what does all that mean? What does, you know, smash factor and what does, why does spin matter and what side spin do. And like, you know, then these learning curve, but just mean what, what does that data even mean? And then you start understanding what that data means, but then it's like, what the next missing component is. Why am I doing that? Right. Like, okay, this is what I'm doing, but what's causing me doing that. Like, and that's, that's where you guys come in is cuz you're like, okay, you're doing this because this right here, not because of this over here. And I think like it's the building blocks of, of the swing essentially.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's part of why people love playing golf is, uh, I, I personally love, uh, just learning also like trying different shots, like feeling the improvement. It's like, you know, kind of self improvement process that you can, uh, do,

Speaker 6:

Dude. It's the best feeling of the world. Like it sucks. Like I was at the driving range yesterday. It's 110 here, so it's super fricking hot. And I was at the driving range, just sweating my off. And I was just doing like chipping. I was just chipping. Right. I mean, I was on the range. I was getting like, you know, nine iron kind of like long chips and you know, they're all not that great. But when you get the ones that are good and you're like, oh yeah. Now I'm starting to feel it. And it, or we start finding that little thing as like, oh, that's what I've been doing wrong. My feet placements, incorrect, whatever it might be. Like, I don't know. I think the best feeling in the world is when you walk up to a, a, a, you know, on the cores and you hit a really good shot and you're like, that's why I'd like golf, right? Like that shot right there. Not the other 9 89 of them that suck the, put this one right here. So, I mean, I, that's kind of, the fun is just trying to learn how the learning part of it. And the thing about this too, with the hack motion is like, you don't have, I mean, you can, you can get an instructor. That's cool. I mean, I have multiple, but like this will teach you yourself by instant feedback as to what's going on with your swing and what's going through wrist and you know, maybe not as bad as you think you are, maybe just, this is the, maybe this is the one thing that's holding you back from mm-hmm<affirmative> you know, being more consistent.

Speaker 7:

Yep.

Speaker 6:

So where can people find the hack motion?

Speaker 7:

It's most, uh, customers buy it on our homepage, hack motion.com. So we do inter worldwide, uh, delivery, like three days. Usually the expected delivery time.

Speaker 6:

We're gonna ship from Lavia. Yeah.

Speaker 7:

We ship from Lavia. We're gonna be on Amazon actually now. Uh, and uh, but expert shipping actually nowadays work so fast. Like we can ship cause you're

Speaker 6:

Gonna blow up on. You're gonna blow up on Amazon. I'll tell you right now, like seriously text sell, like crazy on golf tech on Amazon. It doesn't matter what the price is like, you know? I mean, reps auto sells a ton of em. I don't know. Just, that's just, I know that, but one of you guys gonna be on Amazon

Speaker 7:

It's now, now we're actually preparing the listing. So it's an upcoming week. So maybe

Speaker 6:

There's a huge pay in the. I'm trying to,

Speaker 7:

Yeah. It's a lot of technicalities to, to, to get everything sorted.

Speaker 6:

So are you, are you drop shipping? It, are you like sending to Amazon and then it's gonna be FBA or something. So you have to ship it for, we,

Speaker 7:

We, we gonna do both, like initially we gonna do the drop shipping and then we gonna do fulfilled by Amazon. Uh, so it's, it's just a bit more technicalities there.

Speaker 6:

So you have sent a bunch of those in the United States, I'm assuming, right?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. We sent some boxes there and then they ship it.

Speaker 6:

Oh, that's cool. I mean, so what's, I mean, I just got this package, like I was telling you, I was talking before the show that you guys just sent me and it was sent via DHL and it got here in, what was it say? You sent it on, oh, holy crap, dude. You got here in like four days. That's crazy from Lavia. That's far. I mean, I that's nuts. So I mean, even if you do order from them online, you're gonna get it within a week. Like within that week, most likely it's

Speaker 7:

DHL. Usually it's three, four days. Yeah,

Speaker 6:

Yeah. Three or four days. I mean, it's DHL, so it's not like, oh, we're closed on the weekends. So, I mean, it's kind of cool that it's that fast and they're literally shipping it halfway across the world. So, um, if people wanna find, you think, check out hack motion.com and then are you guys on social too?

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Yeah. Instagram hack motion. Uh, Facebook hack motion, uh, you know, Twitter hack motion. So the hack motion. Yeah.

Speaker 6:

Well, I'm excited to like play with this now, like to play with this in the data. Cause I think it'd be fascinating to see if this is my problem and I didn't even know this was a problem to be honest. So I mean, now that I see it, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. It's cuz you're, you know, everything could be set up, but if your wrists are flopping around and you're gonna lose complete control of that ball when you hit, when you hit it. So, um, that's awesome. So thank you for being on the show. Um, you guys can check out hack motion, um, and be sure to check out Ryan holds. If you guys go to Lavia, he'll hook you up and I'll show you what to do. And um, I'll see you guys in the next episode.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Pleasure being here.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for listening to another episode of behind the golf brand podcast, you're gonna beat me a golf stay connected on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you win, stay out of the beach and see you on the green.