Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore

#68 - Next18: Mathew McDonell (Founder)

March 12, 2022 Paul Liberatore Season 3 Episode 68
Behind the Golf Brand Podcast with Paul Liberatore
#68 - Next18: Mathew McDonell (Founder)
Show Notes Transcript

We made it to Episode 68 of the Behind the Golf Brand Podcast.  In this week's episode, I interview my good friend Mathew McDonell, founder of Next18. 

At Next 18 their mission is to use the sport of golf as a conduit to provide transformational mental health resources and holistic life resource training to veterans with disabilities and first responders. These week-long golf camps, offered free of charge to veterans with disabilities and first responders. Mental health and holistic training modules each evening with a focus on living a healthier, better life.

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Today we play golf.

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Let me show you how we do it in the pros.

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Welcome to behind the golf brand podcast. I never missed with the seven a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf.

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From pro.

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You should learn something from each and every single round

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You play to fun from on and off the green.

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Why would you play golf? You don't play it for money. Just

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Let me put the ball in a hole. This is behind the golf brand podcast with Paul liberatory.

Speaker 7:

What's up guys, Paul from golfers authority. Welcome to behind the golf brand podcast. This week I friend Matt McDonald from next 18. Next 18 is a really cool , uh , not-for-profit out there. And I'm really excited to be sharing 'em with you guys to kind of hear about what they're doing with the game of golf and who they're helping. You know, actually it's funny, cuz the story is he's a friend of , uh , a friend and I heard about them and I I'm like, oh , we need to spread this word. So without further ado, welcome to show Matt.

Speaker 8:

Thanks Paul. Thank you for having me. So

Speaker 7:

Where are you located?

Speaker 8:

So I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin right now. And that's where the nonprofit was founded.

Speaker 7:

Is it cold there? How cold is it?

Speaker 8:

Yeah, it's cold. We currently have a winter freezing advisory with snow. All the school has been canceled. It's uh , it's kind of chaotic today. So

Speaker 7:

Love snow days.

Speaker 8:

Yeah,

Speaker 7:

We don't have mountain Arizona, but I would with DMS in college, it was cool in college because I was like, oh hell yeah, I remember here's the story. Here's a really cool story. One time when I was , I was in college, like it was over MLK weekend. It was a Friday before and it was a blizzard essentially. And they're like, oh, class are canceled Friday. And it was a real blizzard. And so then we like, we're gonna Chicago cause it's a three day weekend. And I remember it was like two in the morning and we're driving out of west Lafayette, Indiana and like going on the high , not we're on the freeway, we're on the we're on that interstate. We're on the highway, like to connect and we get about halfway down and then the cops stop us. And like, you can't go like , they're like, you can't go this way. There's like I black ice. And I was like, what's the , ah , you know , come from Arizona. And they're like, you need to turn around. We were already halfway to the, the interstate. And I was like, so we had turn all the way around. We drove all the way back. And then, then we got on the freeway or the interstate, right? So now we're driving to , to drive Chicago. And it was like two in the morning. It's pitch black out . Like everyone's going like one mile an hour down the interstate. Right. And it was like the most surreal because there was like fricking semis all along the side, the interstate, like Jack knifed in like ice schools and hanging off of 'em . And I was like, what the hell are we doing? Cause I knew we'd probably die if , and we're driving this like 1986, like Toyota tourist Terel it was like the biggest piece of crap. And the heater didn't work.

Speaker 8:

It's funny when , uh , I went to college , uh , my first two years in Kentucky. So coming F from a city here where, you know, gets six, 12 inches at a time and everyone is just like, oh, this is normal to a place there where a half inch of snow. And they literally shut down the entire town because they didn't even have snowplows. So yeah, it , it , it

Speaker 7:

Always scare me. Ice scares me man. Cause I like, I remember being at stoplight once in Indiana and all of a sudden I started just sliding. Like I was stopped and I started sliding and I was like , I don't a panic attack. I was like, I'm gonna hit this dude next to me. You know? And like, what are you gonna do? You can't gun it. You can't like I , so I stormed or not. No . Yeah . So you're not a professional golfer obviously. I mean, maybe you are .

Speaker 8:

I wish.

Speaker 7:

I mean, we all will .

Speaker 8:

I like to tell myself I am.

Speaker 7:

Yeah . Well we all do like literally I literal talking to about talking about this yesterday. Like I'm gonna do a YouTube video and I'm going to show the world how bad I really am and like no cheating. Right? Like we all cheat. And if you say you don't, you're such a liar. Right? Because like we all cheat and not like the Mo yeah, there's mus, but like, oh, you know, drop balls, water balls, balls in the forest. Like, you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 8:

Moving it a little bit. So

Speaker 7:

Like for real, so like it was, I played golf like two months ago in a tournament, not don't even tournament. It was like, just like get together. And the guy was giving like lessons was like, Hey, you need to be on it . Like, be real, like, like who cares everybody else does, but just really take your score. And I did it and I always had a heart attack. Like I was like so sad because I was like, well over , I was like over a hundred and I was like, seriously. And I'm like, you know, what's be a really good video to show people like one, like how you get your , what , how to figure out your handicap number one. And then two like, okay, well , you know where you're starting from? Cause I mean , I've always like who hasn't lied their whole life. Right? Like seriously about golf. Oh yeah. I I'm from the eighties. You hit in the eighties. Like if you hit in the eighties, like consecutively, then mad props, but yeah. So you All right . So where'd you grow up then?

Speaker 8:

So I grew up in , um, Northern suburbs of Milwaukee. I'm originally from Michigan. Uh , but my parents moved a couple times when we were younger. They were , uh , corporate world. So we moved , uh , a bunch of different times settled in Northern Milwaukee. Um, I think when I was like 10 grade school.

Speaker 7:

Yeah . They were saying mill LA Guke

Speaker 8:

Remember Waynes. Yeah. It's Algonquin for the native land. I I'll never forget that line from Wayne's world.

Speaker 7:

Like I see , I like, you're like, yay . I'm Milwaukee . We're in it. We're in a movie.

Speaker 8:

Yep .

Speaker 7:

It's not to . So what did , so like what did you do? So you grew up in, did you play like all of like more like as a kid or to put your dad or like what that's how I did it. I

Speaker 8:

Mean, so I, I , I think I started playing golf when I was like five or six. Um, it's always been something that has been in the background for me, played in high school, varsity team, junior year , junior and senior year. I was good in off to be at that point. Right. When you're in high school, able to be on a team. I, I went into college at Murray state. Um, tried out for the golf team down there. It was a division one school for golf. And I , I think basketball, it was really interesting because in Wisconsin where I played, it was one type of grass and Murray state was , um,

Speaker 2:

That like , uh ,

Speaker 7:

Or

Speaker 8:

Something. Yeah. So that transition was extremely difficult. I never knew that at that age, that there was differences in like the grass that you played on. And so when you're hitting off of one, one like explodes, the other, you have a big divot with, so the, the differences between that affected your shot selection and everything and distances. And I don't know, I ended up I, the game of golf , um , after college , uh , I played a little bit while I was , um , post-college like in my early twenties, then I joined the military. I was in Germany for four years. I was in the military for five years. Germany didn't have a lot of golf courses and where I was stationed, I just didn't have time for it. So there was a period of about 10 years. And then when I got out of the military , uh, when I started my own, my first business, I just didn't play the game. I didn't have time, everything that got me to starting this nonprofit took place about two years ago now. And I kind of post-military realized that I had kind of like given up on a lot of my, my passions and golf was one of those. And I , I knew how easy it would be to go back to the game. So , um, after I sold my business , uh, I kind of had the financial freedom to do what I wanted. All I wanted to do was play golf. So I took a job at a local country club out here and literally just worked in the pro shop for an entire summer, played golf. I think I played a hundred plus rounds in 2020. So while everyone was dealing with COVID, I was out on a golf course, getting lost and rediscovering the passion that I had for the game. So I think in a way it kind of like saved me.

Speaker 7:

Interesting. Let's rewind a little bit. So you were in the military, what'd you do in the military? What branch were you in army?

Speaker 8:

Yeah, I was in the army. I was airborne infantry with 170 third . Uh, I was in from 11 to the end of 15 to played Afghanistan in a combat role. Uh, 12, 13, medically retired from just wear and tear and combat injuries. So,

Speaker 7:

So when you were in Afghanistan, were you at a forward base or where were you at?

Speaker 8:

So we were at a smaller base than a fob . Uh , we were kind of like at a base in between, Outside. Yeah. Kind of protecting the fob . So kind of on the front lines, going out every day , this amount of patrols , uh, engaging in fire fights in the enemy. So

Speaker 7:

What province are you in?

Speaker 8:

Uh, logo province about, I wanna say like 60 or 70 miles Southwest of , uh , Kaul .

Speaker 7:

So you're like on patrols, like every day . Yeah . Like foot patrol. Right. And like, yeah . Talking to the people. Right. Yep . And like can out candy bars and hopefully not getting shot. And then later on getting shot by the same

Speaker 8:

People. Yeah . Yeah . By the same people you were giving candy to and, you know, engaging and they were shaking your hand and , uh, yeah, it was a typical combat deployment. Um, six months in , I got injured. So I was kind of taken out of that combat role .

Speaker 7:

How'd you get injured?

Speaker 8:

I damaged my knee pretty severely on a , uh , during a movement that we were in, kind of went over a , a wall if like moving out of a position and it with a 95 pound rucksack on and a 25 pound weapon. I'm sure you can imagine what that did to my knee when I went over the wall. Yep . Yeah. So that was effectively the end of , uh , combat patrols for me.

Speaker 7:

I could imagine like the , you know, I , one thing you guys focus on is like mental health, right? Like the veterans. Right. So, I mean, I could imagine the mental strain, it would be to be in that condition to like, be on patrol and like literally being shot at, under fire and then Bri repeat Bri repeat every day . So that's what kind of made you, like, what made you decide then like, Hey, like, you know, you get outta the military, right. And you're like, I'm gonna , you had your own business, you sold the business. And then what made you decide to do this? Like when you had that time to think about it, cause you probably spent a lot of time not thinking about it. Yeah . I would assume . And probably running away from it mentally. And this is , you know, I like not having to deal with it. I'm assuming. So

Speaker 8:

I'll give you the quickest possible rundown. Um ,

Speaker 7:

Oh , we got time.

Speaker 8:

Okay. So I got out of the military in 15, I was medically retired. Part of the things that I was dealing with was, was PTSD , uh , from combat insomnia, from combat post-concussive migraines, which was causing my whole body from like here up to Titan and, you know, to deal with the pressure on active duty towards the end I was prescribed Ambien and Ambien is, as we all know, to , to help with sleep and insomnia immediately after getting out of the military, going to the local VA, they put me on another medication daze, which is a benzodiazepine they're

Speaker 7:

Like super strong.

Speaker 8:

Yeah. I didn't know. I really didn't know . Nobody

Speaker 7:

Knows . Nobody knows. They just hand out crap like a candy. That's what they do . Yeah . I mean,

Speaker 8:

Yeah . So they've got me on two medications. Meanwhile, I'm doing what I think a good vet should be doing. I I'm happily married. I've started my own business. I live in a pretty affluent area in Milwaukee at this point. I'm already getting my MBA. I'm using the military resources. This goes on for about three years. And in 2018, one of my doctors approached me and said, Hey, we're finding out that these benzodiazepines are worse than opioids. There's kind of like this whole initiative to get vets off. And even then it , it didn't really resonate. And it was just like, oh , okay. You know, I'm on a medication. Okay. What do I have to do to stop the

Speaker 7:

Guidance ? Not

Speaker 8:

Easy . Yeah. And I was taking like 20 milligrams of each of these. So I think the recommended dose. Oh yeah. For years the recommended dose is like five milligrams for maybe 90 to 120 days. So

Speaker 7:

Like what did it make you feel like, does it make you feel numb?

Speaker 8:

Oh yeah. In , in hindsight now

Speaker 7:

You're clean . Your mind's like clear and you're like , yeah .

Speaker 8:

And the half life of the , the chemical are fully out of the body. You realize after the fact that you were kind of a zombie , um ,

Speaker 7:

You're following zombie essentially is what you are.

Speaker 8:

What a lot of us do. And, and it's very common for first responders too, is you load your plate with as much as possible. So you don't, you're , you're emotionally numb. So you don't have to deal with the traumas from the past. And you just so going to school, you know, furnishing a new home , uh , renovating a house , uh , getting , no,

Speaker 7:

You ,

Speaker 8:

You , you

Speaker 7:

Get completely, you busy yourself. Like , yep . You get so busy . You're not on your mentally numb because of the medication. Then two , you, you literally go 120 miles an hour every day. Yeah . To not deal with other stuff. No, trust me . I get it. Right .

Speaker 8:

Yeah. So basically what they, they recommended was, well, you can take a half a dose of each for two weeks and stop cold Turkey, dude .

Speaker 7:

That's bull .

Speaker 8:

Well, I, I know that I did. And , uh, it , 14 is into cold Turkey. It almost like going crazy resulted in , it almost resulted in suicide.

Speaker 7:

Really.

Speaker 8:

I , I didn't know what was going on with my body chemically, mentally. I wasn't in control. Um, luckily I got through locking up my guns safely. Uh , I had the foresight to like, you are not in control , like do this thing to protect yourself for the next five minutes. Um, it ultimately took 18 months with some doctors outside of the VA to like incrementally every three weeks, titrate milligram by milligram. I don't remember much of the two years. This was the time where I ended up. I had all my business. I had to take care of myself , uh , physically and mentally my, my marriage fell apart. For whatever reason. I, I can't imagine I was a pleasant person to be around while I was going through the, the withdrawals from everything. So it cost me a lot. But in the meantime, I started reaching out to some of the veteran organizations that I had been , uh, in contact with. And one of them was Sufi fund. They're a national nonprofit . And one of their modalities was , um, recreational therapy and adaptive sports. And their whole thing was recovery through sport. I noticed that they had a golf camp. They had ski programs. They do all these programs where they would get a bunch of veterans together for maybe four or five days. Everything would be funded because this is a national organization. They're about the same size as wounded warrior project. So I went on a trip and at this point I was probably four, five months into the titration program. So I was pretty chemically imbalanced , uh , mentally, emotionally , uh , I still really didn't even know what was going on. And

Speaker 7:

So they put you back on it. Is that what happened ? No .

Speaker 8:

No .

Speaker 7:

What happened?

Speaker 8:

Yeah. So you , you go back on it at a normal, in

Speaker 7:

A lesser dose of ,

Speaker 8:

Well , you go back to the normal dose and then like, literally, so the 20 ,

Speaker 7:

The 20 milligrams, they put you back on it. Yeah . With the plan slowly take you , dude. You remember my story? Like seriously, I was on Lexapro and like, my doctor was like, I didn't even need it. Okay. My doctor was like, oh, you need this. I was going to law school and like, oh, this will help you with law school. I was like, why? He's like, oh, just trust me. It'll help you. Like take , you'll just be conduit to concentrate more. And I was like, okay, no, for reals. And so they don't tell you all the other side effects, like weight gain , uh, like numbness. Like you don't, you just are hyper focused, like whatever. And then like last October, I was like, I'm like, I'm gonna get off this crap. I don't need this crap more. And they also did the same thing. They go, oh, you only need like 10 milligrams. And by the end I was on 20 milligrams. And I didn't even know why I was on 20 milligrams. Like I didn't , I had no reason why. And so like, I did the same thing where I , and the , the doctor was like, oh yeah. When you off over two weeks, dude, if you're on a drug for 10 years, you don't win off over two weeks. Like you , I like you start Googling around. You realize that's not the , about the right way of doing it. So essentially, like I did the same thing when you're telling me , sir , I'm like, I totally understand. Because like, yeah , you feel fine. Like , oh, I'm feel great. The first week you're like, oh yeah, I'm doing great second week. You're like, what? The F? And like, I was, I was getting NA , I was like throwing up. I was like, nauseous. Like I was all over the place, like emotionally, mentally, like for real, I was like, I totally get it. And like, I mean, it took months. Like I went cold Turkey. I didn't . And like , just get back on. I'm like, there's no, there's no way I'd rather go to hell. Like, there's no way I would do that because I already went through all this other crap. So now when I , my doctor's always like, oh , should try this . I'm like, no , not doing that, dude. I'd rather die. No , thanks .

Speaker 8:

Informed consent. Now for me takes on a whole new meaning. And it's interesting because like , for now, I'm getting to as , and social work , uh , to tie in with what the work that we're doing with next 18. And I preach about it to all of the younger , uh , students with me about how, like I've told them my story. And I said, this is why you need to, people need to know what they're taking. They need to know what the long-term effects are. Most of these medications. And I'm not saying all medications are bad. Most medications, if you follow the plan, right? Like the , the guidance like ambient, I think it's something like it's a short term medicine coupled with a really good sleep regimen plan so that you can fix the circadian rhythm, get back into a routine so that you can come off of it in like 90 days. But you've adapted and your brain and your body and all the chemistry back to, okay, now we have the routine to go forward. It's not a bandaid. It's not a, Hey, here's this thing. Just a

Speaker 7:

Forever bandaid. Right . That's what it is like they like , and you as a human, you think, oh, this is why I sleep well. And then what happens is you withdraw, as soon as you get off of that. And you're like, yeah , cuckoo it . Like when you're right. It takes forever. Like the two weeks is complete BS. Like it takes forever. It took forever. It took me five months probably to get off of , of it. And that was actually starting . Like, I mean, every day it's like, you get 1% better, you know, I remember half a percent like, so, so then when you went to camp, then you , so at that point, like how far off were you off of that drug then?

Speaker 8:

Uh , I was four months into an 18 month recovery titration plan. I was in the midst of it. I ,

Speaker 7:

The VA give you that plan or did, did , um ,

Speaker 8:

No. The outside providers did. So I didn't have communication with the VA for two years after it, because I was in my mind at the time they had cost me everything. They almost cost me my life. They cost me my marriage. They cost me a business. You're

Speaker 7:

Like, I'm not trust you guys. You guys messed me up. I mean, not the VA. It's just that right . I mean that ,

Speaker 8:

And that needs to be said because people hear my story and they're like, God, how can you trust the VA? Every facet of everything in the world, the fundamental purpose of the VA is an amazing thing. It's there to take care of us. There are people in all walks of life, in all businesses and all things that there's good, apples and bad apples. And you know, one thing I've really , really learned is self care . If that's it. I that's , I see the caseloads that through my internship, in a clinical setting, for my degree, I see what caseloads look like for doctors, for, for social workers, for all these people. If, if you're burned out, if you're burned out, how are you gonna give good care? How are you gonna remember all these things? So it's a , it's a whole thing. It's not just, Hey , well ,

Speaker 7:

It's not malicious. It's not malicious. It's not intentional. It's like doctors have been trained now to prescribe X for Y and not like, oh, we need to look at you holistically and figure out what hell's wrong with you.

Speaker 8:

And we wanna work with the VA. We want, you know, as a veteran service organization, I want to work with the VA at the end of the day, it's it's suicide prevention. It's keeping veterans alive. It's giving veterans other options. Yeah , I do a good job. So that's what we want.

Speaker 7:

It's just the drugs , the drugs , right . People need 'em right. But like a , what dosage is the right one to keep you?

Speaker 8:

It scares me because a lot of, I , I feel lucky. I really feel lucky on the fact that I was only on two medications because in this clinical role, I'm, I'm in an environment where we're dealing with primarily veterans that come through the program. I see. And I know other vets that are on, you know, 5, 10, 15 medications. And I think,

Speaker 7:

Do you even need all that? Right. It's a , it's a cocktail, right? So like what , how do you get them off of that?

Speaker 8:

That's so all of this ended up leading to going to this camp over the next months, kind of seeing like, I'm always really fascinated with how businesses work and how things work and what I would do to make it different or, or make it better. So I kind of took this model of what se five fund was offering. And I said, why aren't we offering mental health resources? You've got this group of people together, and the camps are great for what they do. And I've learned, you know, that's, their mission is recovery. Their mission is not the mental health. So I thought to myself, golf is my passion. I love golf. I've been playing it my whole life. I know the game. What if I took just the model of the golf camp made, made next 18 with is a mental health nonprofit . We bring in vets and first responders and we give them the golf lessons. We give them 18 holes of golf every day , the same model, but we're also gonna incorporate mental health every day of the camp. We're giving two to four hours of mental health training. And these modules are on resilience, moral injury, PTSD , symptom management, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, breath, work , all of these different resources so that when the participants come to the camp each day, we kind of build them up with more and more resources. A lot of them fit in with the game of golf breath work . You, you incorporate that in with a pre-shot routine, right? You do the same thing over and over. And if you've ever had a lesson with a , a pro, they always kind of stress the, get that, that breath going get the two or three breaths that you need while you're, you're figuring out your shot and, and what you're gonna do. And then you step up to the ball. You take that next breath to get ready for the shot. And then you take your swing. This is all teaching. There's so many other life lessons that can be applied to the game, just in the pre-shot routine. And just in the game alone, that golf seems like a really, really great avenue to, to get it. So we get the participants in, Hey, we're gonna play golf. Everything's provided free charge to you , but we're also gonna give you some resources so that when you leave here, you are better equipped to tackle a lot of the , the roadblock that veterans and first responders deal with.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. I couldn't imagine the PTSD for those . I

Speaker 8:

Couldn't imagine, you know,

Speaker 7:

First responders too , like it's people think, oh , it's all BS. No , it's it's for else . Like,

Speaker 8:

It's , here's the thing though, since I started this internship with my degree, about nine months ago, the word that I learned that I didn't know existed, and maybe you've never heard of moral injury. Are you familiar with that?

Speaker 7:

No.

Speaker 8:

So, and I'm not a doctor. So I'm gonna give the best understanding of what it is at, at the present moment of my education. Moral injury is let's say you grow up and this can affect anyone, not just vets or first responders or anyone. Let's say you grow up in an environment, right? You're taught that being to people, killing people is a sin, right? Or killing people is wrong or doing the wrong thing. You're , you're taught all of these things as, as a child and through early adolescence and into an adulthood, something happens in life. So a moment, so a prime example, you're on a deployment and in combat , uh , civilian, civilian casualties happen. It's, it's, it's a byproduct of war. This civilian gets killed from that killing it, it , I elicits something in you. Maybe you did it. Maybe you inadvertently shot someone because the , the fog of war, right? All of a sudden your , your is right this whole, I know it's wrong to kill someone, especially someone who's innocent. And I did that. And no ramifications come from that. Right? You're in war. You feel terrible about it. This your whole perspective. You're carrying this guilt. Yeah. There's PTSD involved in that, but the way you view the world, this lens has been completely changed. And that's kind of what moral injury is. And moral injury can happen to anyone. The thing is PTSD is the one, the mental illness that has gained more notoriety over the last decade. It's gotten the funding. It's in the DSM as a mental disorder. It's what, when we're in the military and they give us a disability rating, almost every single one of us that has been in combat gets diagnosed with, but there's differentiations between the two, like with the symptoms. So when you're told you have this one thing, it can be really invalidating, cuz it's like, well, I have some of the side effects of, or the symptoms of that. But I, I don't have these other things.

Speaker 7:

It's like a very big catchall, right?

Speaker 8:

Yeah. So moral in injuries getting a lot of attention now, like they're one of the veteran providers that I'm working with. She's a Marine and she's, she's actually writing her dissertation on moral injury and police officers, both fields. Right? Imagine, imagine if you're a firefighter or a , an EMT, like I deployed. And I went to a country for nine months and I came back and I don't have to go to Afghanistan ever again. Like I am physically removed from that place and all of the stressors. Yeah. There's still mental and emotional stuff, but physically I'll probably never be there again. Now imagine if you're an EMT worker and you work in Milwaukee and you've been on the job for five years, you have to drive by same places , every day , feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, you continually go on to locations and you're picking up bodies and putting 'em in the back of the, the ambulance. And maybe you saw someone get, you saw a kid, get run over by a , a drunk driver. And you , you see that location every day for years because that's on your patrol. It's it changes you and being able to get the resources. First of all, being able to even understand what this thing is, tying it back to the traumas that you're you're dealing with in symptoms. That is something that we've been really focused on is allowing our participants. We educate them, Hey, this is, this is what this thing is. You may be feeling it as this, this or this. And then it's really interesting too, from the

Speaker 7:

You connect, like you can , they're

Speaker 8:

Like all of a sudden

Speaker 7:

You're like understand, like , you know , they underst they know you understand what they're going through. And then they start putting the pieces together like, oh,

Speaker 8:

And a lot of the education that I've gotten too, and this isn't a catchall, but a lot of it, a lot of the things that veterans or that the military members and first responders experience is when you're a child programming, you, you, you learn things from your parents at a very young age between like zero and eight. We learn, I think like 75% of the programming, that's gonna take us into our adult life. A lot of us go to the military. Uh , a lot of us are fixers. We're selfless service. It's just something that's been ingrained in us as, as children. And we go to the military kind of as maybe an escape or, you know, for whatever reason you join the military. And you're kind of, maybe you're looking for these things, right. And then an incident happens, right? Like, let's say you didn't have a father and you go to the military for a father figure or like leadership and your leaders do something heinous, right? Like maybe the , they cover something up or any number of things. And that morally like that exacerbates stuff from childhood, being able to kind of, the more I'm learning about it. And the more we're learning as an organization and just connecting the dots with the providers in the community that I've been working with to giving these resources to the vets and the first responders, so that they're able to start understanding because at the end of the day, the traumas that we have from the past, it's a part of us, but it's not who we are. It doesn't define us.

Speaker 7:

Yeah .

Speaker 8:

But getting someone to understand that right, by giving them all of these resources, Hey, we're gonna have some talks about some stuff that's really uncomfortable. But day one of the camp, we went over some breathing exercises to kind of help keep you rational instead of getting emotional and, and being able to stay in the present so that we can address the past trauma so that we can accept what happened and try to move forward. So it's been a lot, it's been a really big learning experience over the last 12 months, both personally and professionally, and, and how to incorporate that into next 18. Because at the end of the day, we're a mental health nonprofit . We use the game of golf as our modality for , um , getting people involved. So it's, it's twofold, right? It's mental health and it's golf.

Speaker 7:

Do you feel that like, had you not gone through what you went through post service ? Like you would not be doing this at all.

Speaker 8:

I wouldn't be on

Speaker 7:

This path. You'd be , you'd be running a company. Yep . Right . You would , um , and you would just run your company and made money and the, of the American dream, blah, blah , blah. But then like not dealt with the past and not deal with the reliance on the prescriptions that they were providing you. Not saying they were like addictive or like, oh yeah. But it's more like what it does your essentially,

Speaker 8:

Well , they were a hundred percent . They were oh , right . Because

Speaker 7:

It's not chosen though. It's not, oh , I need my, whatever. It's like, you just take every day cuz it's part of your routine because that's what you've been Done been doing .

Speaker 8:

That's what I was told.

Speaker 7:

Know that . Yeah.

Speaker 8:

And as a, as a once

Speaker 7:

At the ambient though, cause some people get addicted to ambient.

Speaker 8:

I think what happens when a lot of us are put on medications, not just vets and first responders, but in general. Yeah. If you're put on a medication and a medication has a, let's say you're supposed to use it for 90 days. Right? That's that's the recommended from the FDA or from the, the whoever made the , the pharmaceuticals. You typically don't see your doctor every 90 days. So if you go back into your doctor, six months, six

Speaker 7:

Months later for

Speaker 8:

Checkup , your by body is already technically addicted to the chemical. And you're probably experiencing symptoms of withdrawal because your body has adapted to the amount that's in your body. And now it's saying, oh, I need more. So your symptoms start coming .

Speaker 7:

That stuff it takes forever.

Speaker 8:

But if you go into a provider and you know, unfortunately sometimes you go into providers and the way that the healthcare system is set up, it's, let's get the people in, get 'em in so we can bill and we can move forward. And as many patients as possible because the healthcare is inundated with patients now it's oh, you're still having symptoms. Okay. Hey, let's just up your dose. That should help. Okay, cool. I'll see you in another six months.

Speaker 7:

It , or we'll give you a , we'll give you a second one that tends to do well with that drug. That happened to me too. And I was like two months, four months into it . I was like, doesn't doesn't even work. And it makes me super .

Speaker 8:

When, when in reality there's so many proven holistic approaches to coping with a lot of the things that we deal with in life. But unfortunately, you know, we've all been conditioned, just take a pill and everything will be okay when, in reality, maybe learning how to do like yoga or meditation to be in the present.

Speaker 7:

So how long were you on that before they were like, oh, just do it for two weeks . Take it off for two weeks. Cause that's what they always say. Two weeks will get , get outta your system.

Speaker 8:

Whatever. I think it was, it was definitely over three and a half years. Yeah .

Speaker 7:

Well

Speaker 8:

They don't and that's not, you know, I

Speaker 7:

Yell at my doctor because what happened to me was I, his PA was like, oh, just take two weeks. You can get off of it. And like, that was the weaning. It was like, oh, we'll go to 10. And then we'll go to five and whatever. It was two week period. So I did exactly what they said and then everything was fine. And then like the week, next week after that, my like I was, my body was like, yeah , I remember just being like so nauseous. Like I never threw up. I would just be so nauseous for , for like hours. And I was like, what is happening? And I knew it was the drugs, but then you're like, I'm not going. Like, you don't wanna go back to it cuz it's not like , will you just get back on ? The symptoms will go away. And I'm like, well , what is that gonna do? I means I'm now I'm addicted to it . No thanks. Um, but I remember yelling at my doctor and saying like, dude, you need to train your people, bro. Because like I was on a drug for 10 years, 2, 2, 2 weeks, come on. Like, and I do nothing about drug . I did nothing. I was trying to figure out what was going on. And it was nothing on the internet was saying like, you know, you know, this is if the longer you're on something the longer the period has to be and it has to be really low . So are you on anything then right now or now ? No.

Speaker 8:

No. See I ,

Speaker 7:

And how do you feel? I mean , you gotta deal with your, but I mean, how do you feel?

Speaker 8:

I , yeah, I have to deal with my and there's still trauma, you know, in my past, but I've, I've learned through my education, through the clinical internship that I'm in through, through other or modalities of , um, processing, right? Like how to move forward without using medications. And a lot of that is through holistic approaches and, and that can be any number of different things. Right. Um, I think the hardest thing for me post, whatever happened is accepting that, you know, I , I, first of all, I have to , I have to share the story. It's hard to talk about it, but I need to use what little platform I have right now to let other veterans hear it . First of all, and hope that this gets out and someone else hears it in a position where they can actually do something about it. Um, like I S I told you earlier, I didn't talk to the VA for two years, but about six months ago, I finally got over my feelings of angst and made an appointment with my mental health provider at the VA who is very well regarded in Milwaukee. You know, I walked in after not seeing this man for two and a half years, and immediately I had the feelings of like, I , I felt it in my chest. I, I was angry and he had no clue what had happened. The first things out of his mouth was, Hey, how is your , how's your wife doing awesome. So I was able to get through the, through the, the, the uncomfortableness, the anxiety, yeah, the, the emotional wall and explain to him what had happened. And I said, you know, I didn't wanna come here and ever talk to you, but I had to, I had to get past some things in my life and accept, right? Like this, this is where I am. This is what happened. I think he really took it to heart. And he wrote me an email afterwards. And he said, you've really changed my perspective on empathy and, and how I prescribe. And I need to be more aware of what I do because it, you know, this could have went X different ways. Right. And think of it , this happened to me. What other veterans did this happen to? Right. I can't be

Speaker 7:

The other side. Yeah. Where they get off their stuff, because they're like, what's wrong with me. And then , you know , our bad happens.

Speaker 8:

Our suicide rates are through the roof, both in the veteran community and the first responder community. So if at the very least me telling him and engaging him and getting through my uncomfortable feelings, changed his, his way of doing what he did. And he also shared that right. Disseminated with the rest of his providers. Maybe somehow I saved another vet that doesn't have the, the willpower to speak up or just doesn't know what to say. So that had to happen . There's a

Speaker 7:

Reason there's always a reason why things happen the way

Speaker 8:

They , and carrying that through larger profit , right? Like I have to, I'm very close to a lot of the vets and first responders, because all of the commonalities of the things that they're dealing with, I, I just went through. So it's an emotional rollercoaster for these camps. Uh, we've had two. Now we did in one, in September, in October of last year, kind of like proof of concept, Hey, this is what we're doing. I fully funded everything with, with a couple of donations from some local nonprofits in the area and some private donors, but we proved that it's a thing. And unanimously the 21 participants that came, they don't stop talking about it. You know, they're , they're still using the exercise we gave. 'em now four or five months later. Uh, a couple of them are on the advisory committee. Uh , Milwaukee fire department really got involved early on with their chief , uh , chief Lipsky. I, I couldn't be more thankful for him helping the thing is if, if we're going able to give our services to like the police, the sheriffs , uh , EMTs in the areas, you need an organization, you need someone like chief Lipsky who understands that there are mental health issues. And we need to address them. Especially after everything that first responders have been dealing with with COVID , everybody's burned out. You know, we're seeing stuff in the news, like super

Speaker 7:

Out .

Speaker 8:

Yeah. And people are first responders are showing at least one or two symptoms of PTSD . They're having they're living what veterans have lived for decades. Right. And we've been saying, we need more help in the mental health space, but it's always been so stigmatized. It's just this thing that people don't talk about. And even when you see like Simone Biles and all of these other athletes that are finally speaking up about it, it's still kind of so stigmatized it's cause

Speaker 7:

People think it's a weakness. Like, oh, you're not. I mean, yeah . The , the , the person who's having the issues is like, I don't wanna share that that's weak. I'm not wanna show weakness. Right. And it's like, that's not weakness. That's a strength cuz you recognized it. Like you figured it out. You know what's going on.

Speaker 8:

Here's a good one for you. Imagine being a green beret, this, this badass guy, right ? You're you're this macho alpha male. You are the tip of the spear in the military. You go on 4, 5, 6, 7 deployments over five years. It's all kinetic. Right? So every time you're deploying, you're in combat you're you're you are killing people. You're seeing teammates get killed. You're just living this life. And every day you're back and you're or unit, and you're being told like you, you are, it, you are like the most badass person in the world. You can do anything. There's no object or , um, barrier that you can't take down. And you are , you are the alpha male. Well, no human can tackle everything that life throws at them. And all of a sudden you start feeling differently. You can't speak up. You can't say anything, especially when we're in these positions, like, like a police officer. If you start saying to your leadership that you're having mental health issues or you're not feeling right, the probably, and I don't know this, but I would imagine there's a chance to like lose your job or, you know, maybe you get pulled off the streets and you put on a desk position because suicide and the risk and what that would do to the department

Speaker 7:

Liability and all the other. Yeah.

Speaker 8:

Instead of, Hey, okay, what do we need to do to help you and make sure that you're okay and give you resources. We need to get past the stigma of if you are speaking up because you have feelings and emotions that you're somehow like damaged. So that's what we're trying to do in our own little section of the world right now. And, and hopefully the

Speaker 7:

More golf, I mean, cuz you knew how to play golf, you enjoyed it. Or you realized your own experience that summer or that time when you, that this is helping you in a way that you never thought it would help you.

Speaker 8:

I think there's a lot to be said for recreational therapy. Um, that's, that's part of what I'm working on with next 18 with my , uh , masters and social work. I saw the benefit from the camps that I went to right? When, when you're outdoors and you're around 12 fellow veterans and you've all been in combat, it's easier to talk about the stuff, right? We, we, as vets and first responders have a very dark sense of humor because the things that we've seen and things that we've engaged in , um, we just have sick jokes. And when you're in a , an environment where you're at a camp and someone kind of makes a joke and people around you actually get it, all of a sudden you're like, oh , I'm finally around people that understand me. And it, it snowballs into, Hey, I finally feel comfortable about opening up about maybe this. We had a participant , um, he's also an assistant pro at one of the private country clubs here. He came to our camp and he gave two . He gave the lessons for the, the , the three days of this camp. I did not know at the time when he came that he was a Marine and that he was also, he had gone through the PGA hope program. After teaching this class, he came up to me and first of all, he donated all of the funds that he made that year when you're in the PGA hope program. I guess that the teaching, they , they paid him like a couple hundred dollars for his time. Um, he donated that all to the nonprofit and he said, you know, this is the first time in 10 years that I've been out of the military where even though I was instructing, I felt like one of the guys and I like, I felt the camaraderie again. So he's involved now he's on the advisory, seeing that, and like reading that email from him was like, okay, we have something here. Let's keep going with it. It's it's recreational therapy. And what I want to do with my degree is when I'm not running the camps, which , uh, you know, right now we've got like four scheduled this coming year one each month because there's a lot out of downtime that I need to retool. And , um , just self care for myself after a camp. But I wanna do recreational therapy. One-on-one counseling where I take a veteran in Milwaukee and we do like six sessions over the summer and we just go play nine holes of golf. And we just talk, hopefully through next 18 or my, my degree down the road, there's an ability for me to do this free of charge. Right? So the vet doesn't have to pay for the golf, whether that's figuring out insurance and, and getting a credit credential that way, or some private course, or some local course says , Hey, we really like what you're doing. We wanna be a part of it. We're gonna give you, you know, 15 rounds of golf over the course of the summer on like off peak hours, like a Tuesday at 10:00 AM for nine holes. Um, so that we can just talk because while I

Speaker 7:

Understand talk to nobody, right? I mean ,

Speaker 8:

That's the problem . I understand the benefit of psychologists. You know, I literally, we work under two , uh , veteran psychologists right now. It has its place, but there are some people that inherently just, you know, they don't like the sterile one-on-one environment. They don't like sitting in a chair across for someone, or right now zoom, zoom is really impersonal. It's, it's really hard to connect with. You know, like I'm talking to you how much more awesome would this be if we're sitting next to each other and we can like, feel the energy, they're gonna golf

Speaker 7:

Part . And we're like hanging out and like being

Speaker 8:

So imagine going out for two hours and we just play nine holes and we talk and it doesn't have to be clinical. It doesn't have to be this sterile. Hey, I'm gonna go through all the things that I've learned to kind of educate you. Let's just talk. And through the talking over the course of six sessions over the summer , we kind of figure out, Hey, where, where do we need to help you? And through that, give the resources. I don't tell you how to do it. I say, Hey, here's the resources they've worked. I've used them . There's research behind them . If you wanna use, 'em use 'em , but I'm here to help you.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. But you're also not like you're not coming from a position of authority or you're not like I'm a doctor here. Take this. You're more like, dude, I went through this . Yeah . Like

Speaker 8:

There is this model . This

Speaker 7:

Is what worked for me. There's a lot of BS out there, but this is what worked for me. And you can do it with it .

Speaker 8:

There's this model that I just learned about. I think it's called the, the, the parent adult child model. And it's like this, this bracket, right? Like parent adult child. And it's how we interact. And if parents interact with children, it's always from this, like, you need to do this. And if it's adult to adult, it's more like what we're doing. We're just talking. I wanna be more of adult to adult instead of provider to child. Right. Or even provider to adult, because it's still, Hey, you need to do this. I know there's, there's benefits to that. Right. These are psychologists, social workers. This is, this whole field. Is there for a reason. I just want to kind of how I watch the recreational therapy with simplify . I wanna watch how it's done. And also

Speaker 7:

You did to simplify , like really put a li like a life bulb went off in your head. You're like, holy crap.

Speaker 8:

I, I think Cy knows my, my stance with them . Uh , they , I'm pretty sure they kept me alive post , uh, getting out of the military. They purchased a service dog for me and put her through all of her training. When I first got out that dog is a life saver . Um, yeah. I can't say enough good things. And I know it's funny cuz they're a nonprofit and I'm a nonprofit , but I think nonprofits should work together at the end of the day because we're both trying to take care of veterans,

Speaker 7:

The same job. It's all .

Speaker 8:

I mean , I would, I would literally be the poster child for how amazing they have been. And , and they know I convey that to 'em literally every time I go to an event with them . So

Speaker 7:

Was that event in like in Wisconsin or was that event ?

Speaker 8:

No, that was in Denver. Um, at Inverness. Yeah, but I actually went to one last year, so they shut down , uh , with COVID they were doing a lot of virtual stuff, but they had to shut down the camps in like 20, 20 and early 20, 21. Yeah . Um, their first camp back across all different modalities. Right. So sailing and all these different things that they did was a golf camp at Kohler , uh , last year. And I think August and because they weren't flying everyone in yet, they only opened it to people in the region and you had to drive there and luckily Kohler, right? One of the best courses in the country is like 45 minutes away from me. So I was like, yep , I'll go. Um, that was four months before my first camp going to Kohler and seeing all the veterans and, and seeing the, the people that ran that camp that I had met two years ago was just like, it was like someone put defib pads to me. And I was like, all right , I know why I'm doing this. I know why I'm doing this. I see how happy I am being at this camp. I see the comradery here . Right? Like I knew I was gonna set this thing up, but then I went back to a camp and it just was like, yep , you have clearly found your purpose in life. And this is what you need to be doing. And thank you to this organization for kind of like showing me the light.

Speaker 7:

It's crazy. How things like that happen in life. Right. Cause you would never thought that was your path. You probably thought completely different path. And then things happen for a reason, which you know, it's hell. But then it changes your whole trajectory on life that you never would imagine a million years would've ever happened.

Speaker 8:

Right.

Speaker 7:

But then you go to that event and it , you know, like you said, it adds fuel to your fire. It's one thing about talking about doing something. It's another thing about actually doing something right. That's everything too. Cause a lot of people say, oh, I wanna do this. You know, but they never do it. And it's like, you know, you made the leap because of what you've been through and you saw how it works to help other people.

Speaker 8:

Yeah. Yeah. So now we're,

Speaker 7:

So how long it is , the , how long has next 18 been around then? Like a year,

Speaker 8:

10 months. Yeah. I , I started in like June of last year. We , you know, we did the filing, we did everything the right way to become a 5 0 1 [inaudible] [inaudible] the two camps that I ran. Luckily that course that I went to to work at , uh, after I sold my business, I had, I developed a really good relationship with them, fire Ridge and Grafton. Uh , it's pretty nice track about like 20 minutes north of here and their owners kind of, you know, I started explaining them , Hey, this is what I want to do. But I, I can't fund like going to Kohler and paying 15 or 20,000 a hours to run a camp and bring 10 people in and lodge 'em and feed 'em . So they were so unbelievably gracious. They, they literally donated everything minus like the cost for them to feed us. So, you know, I paid food costs , um, couple of organizations in the , the air in Milwaukee , uh , charity LaShaun with two guys with balls, a couple of these organizations kind of like got me started with just a couple of polos. Like, like this one we got 'em embroidered with a local business. Michelle. She helped with that bootstrapped man. I, yeah , I took what I learned from owning a small business right on the for-profit side. And that to me, right. That was a learning experience. I, I tapped into some stuff. I learned getting my, my postgrad and my in business. And I learned all of these things to kind of tie into now from experience into the nonprofit . And we were able to run these two camps. We brought in outside providers to do the mental health training. We, we gave 'em yoga , uh , yoga, Nera , mindfulness exercises, moral injury, PTSD , uh, all these different modules. We, we were working with Milwaukee fire department. So I, I brought this and it's funny because you asked that question of, would you have ever seen yourself doing this? I didn't know what social work was. Right. I always just assumed it was this, this thing, right. That people just did. Social work is connecting the dots on the ground level and there as various levels, micro and macro. Right. But at its core, social work is a good social worker is someone who knows the resources in the community and is able to connect their, their person with those resources to empower the , the individual and the community. So in a way it's like, I think I've been a social worker my whole life. I just didn't know it because now it's like connecting all the dots. It's bringing all the resources together and it's giving the vets and the first responders at the camp, the , these , these resources. So it's, it's, it's crazy, but it's also really cool to see it all , uh , unfolding. And

Speaker 7:

So like where do you want X next 18 ? Do you a national , right? Like that's your goal?

Speaker 8:

Yeah, because you know, we, we initially started this conversation with the weather. It's kind of hard to run golf camps in Wisconsin year round , unfortunately. Um, so

Speaker 7:

I mean, you guys could do all kinds of cool stuff, right? Like events, or you could, you know , like it could just, you know, yeah.

Speaker 8:

So we have, we have an outing schedule this June with a local course, and then we're tentatively scheduled for four golf camps. And we're looking at working with Erin Hills sand valley. These are like top 20 courses in the country. Um, so they're, they're really buying into what we're doing and they're, they're really facilitating it. The thing is we're at that we're at like that growth phase, right? Like the funding phase. This is just like a, for-profit the only way we can keep doing this is with funding. So it's, I've spent the last four months getting the message out, doing podcasts, meeting with locals in the community and, and tapping into my, my boards to connect the dots of the only way that next 18 is gonna get national is if I try trust the people around me and start doing something that I never did in the past, which was, you know, asking for help. So LaShaun connecting us, right? Like this, this is what it's about. This is getting the message out so that people can hear it and trying to grow this thing. We wanna have 25, 30 camps a year , um, across the

Speaker 7:

Countrywide. Yeah.

Speaker 8:

Yeah. Um, one of the other things we're putting together is we wanna do like a virtual check-in. We want next 18 to camp to be the start. I don't want you to come to a camp. And then we never hear from you again, wanna develop a community, a network, and maybe each month we're gonna do this module where for one hour, a month, same day, every month, we're gonna have you able to come back to the trough. And this month we might do an hour on resilience. Next month. We're gonna focus on PTSD the week after that we're gonna fo or the month after that, these modules, right? So 15 minutes checking in at the beginning, 30 minutes of education, and then 15 minutes on the back end for questions. But we want our participants to, we want our alumni to , to feel like they now have resources and this community that they can go back to. We started an indoor golf league this year to keep them engaged. We, we had a couple sign up, so we've got like 12 or 15 teams. We're gonna grow that next year with X golf and a couple of the locations in Milwaukee, the outings, right? We , we might charge you, you know, a hundred dollars to come to the outing. Our alumni will always get a cheaper price. It's grassroots growing a network, right? It's social work, growing, empowering our , our communities so that they don't feel alone anymore. And they feel comfortable talking and they feel comfortable asking for help. And then they go back to their families, their friends, their , their , their force that they're still working and they share right in the military, we call it force multiplying, teach one so that one can teach three and it just keeps going.

Speaker 7:

Well, I think it's really cool what you're doing, and I appreciate you, like actually sharing your story because then people can see that, like, there's a purpose behind it. Not just, oh , we're doing this thing, you know? Yeah . And you know, if it wasn't through what you sacrificed for your country and the other veterans, you know, there wouldn't be a need for this. And I think it's really cool what you're doing. I think it's very smart, you know, especially with , uh , sharing the game of golf with anybody really, to just kind of be around a community of people that are similar, but then also just getting away from life where I always with them , my wife about that , I'm like golf is you can't explain golf. Golf is a , you know, when you're out in the middle of nowhere, hitting a ball with four people, you really don't really know that. Well, like it's kind of fun. It's like an adventure, right. And you kind of do get to escape for those four or five hours, whatever it is. And I think like being able, it's almost like you're doing the therapy through that connection of, you know, how many times we go play golf, you play maybe, maybe go with one other person. And then you always end up with two other people you don't know. But by the end of that round, you're all friends. Like it , it happens every single time you play like it out , you know, without fault , it doesn't matter if you're good or bad, it's always like you connect on a different level. And it's kind of cool. Like you're just bringing that therapy to veterans essentially where, you know, there's no judgment. There's no , um, you know, it's safe, right. Safe environment around, away from the clinical side of, you know, the stigma , the stigma of your broken. Right. Sorry, broke and take these pills.

Speaker 8:

Like that's. Yeah. Yeah. I'm confident that golf in 20, 20, 20 and early 2021 is like, what kept me alive it every morning I would get up and either go to work at the course. Right. Or did you enjoy my golf? Yeah. Yeah . Yeah. Because you

Speaker 7:

Were excited

Speaker 8:

About , well, first of all, I wasn't running something for, for a while . So it was nice to kind of like, just go in and punch in and do my job and, and leave. And I enjoyed it. I did financially with like selling my business. It

Speaker 7:

Sucks financially, but I

Speaker 8:

Mean, no, no, I was fine. I literally, yeah . I walked into that course and I said, I will literally clean carts two days a week. I just want free golf. I just want to be able to play this game. And they said, cool, two days later they moved me into the pro shop. But like, what, I didn't know, when I started playing there, is that a bunch of the members that were there were, were veterans as well. Of

Speaker 7:

Course they all are.

Speaker 8:

And I , I didn't know. We

Speaker 7:

Never realized that like that's

Speaker 8:

And little by little, I started playing golf with them, you know, Hey, do you wanna come out and play golf? Cool. And before I knew it, I was playing like Monday through Friday, five days a week, all summer, all fall. And it was, it was that thing where I just needed to be outside. I needed to be away from crazy. A lot of times I would leave my phone in , in the car and I just nature . Yeah . And the cool thing for me, like next 18, one of our mottos is kind of where I came up with. The name was like the next hurdle, the next challenge, the next mission, the next 18, right? The next 18 holes. Every challenge, every mission kind of in the military, it's all different golf is literally the same. You are never going to play the same round of golf. Even if I played the same course, 120 times last year, the pin placements were always different. The tee blocks were always different, right? The weather, the weather people I played with, how I felt like you will never play the same round of golf. And I think that's something that people who play golf love because there's that uncertainty of golf being such a cruel but beautiful game. And all it takes is like one good shot. Right. And it's, yep . I'll be back tomorrow. Even though I just shot 120, which I don't know what that feels like, but , uh, you know,

Speaker 7:

You know, you should have what 20 is

Speaker 8:

Maybe. Well , it

Speaker 7:

Probably gotten really good. I bet you got really good too, when you're playing that much. Like you just kind of like get in that routine. And like

Speaker 8:

The game came back pretty quickly. I

Speaker 7:

Fast won't , it's like, you won't realize how fast it's , it's still in there when you play once a month. Nah, you're not gonna get it , but, well, I'm excited for you guys. I'm glad I got to meet you. It's cool that what you're doing and I appreciate you like sharing your story with everybody. And you know, if you guys out there need to check out next 18, where can they find , what's your website address

Speaker 8:

Next eighteen.org . So XT one eight dot and we are on Facebook, Instagram, Instagram. We typically post a lot of mental health resources and uh, golf tips and advice. So we try to keep it consistent with that. Uh, we are on most of the social media platforms, so

Speaker 7:

That's cool. Well thank you for being on the show today and you guys need to check this out. It's really cool. So I'll see you guys in the next episode . Thanks Paul.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for listening to another episode of behind the golf brand podcast, you're gonna beat me a golf stay connected on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you win, stay out of the beach and see you on the green.